Cheese & Wine Pairing with Patrick McGuigan & Lydia Harrison MW

Okay so welcome everybody to another Cheese and wine pairing event with me And Patrick Meighan this time for CC School in London some of you might have Been to some of our actual events at the School in Bermondsey Street where myself And Patrick have collaborated with the Academy of cheese and to bring you some Different events and and we recently Collaborated dinner Patrick for a Project that you were doing the British Cheese weekender yeah that was not last Weekend but the weekend before so three Days of online talks and tastings to try And support sort of artists and cheese Makers in the UK they’re having a tough Time of it and you and I did our usual Were cheese and wine routine which was Great fun we we only had four now Although it was quite a win sort of Rushed through it so it’ll be nice Tonight to have a bit more time to talk About I’m just responding to queries of The chat yes oh there is a scusi but That’s just blank it should just be me And Patrick that you need to Lydia Harris and you can pin on spotlight our Videos it should come up and we’ve got a Few slides for you to see as well as They practice if you’d find Patrick and Just pin his video that means it should Come up on your screen it’s just cuz We’ve got more two presenters but Hopefully if you if you can find those

Okay So yes welcome everybody just to explain A little bit about who we are first of All then we’ll get on to cheese and wine Pairings so my name is Lydia Harrison I’m a master wine and a full-time Educator at the WT school in London and Bauman’s E Street and we do all Qualifications in wines spirits and Sucking from level one a kind of Beginner and then through to level two Level three to the Diploma in wines our Level four qualification and we do some Spirits and sake qualifications as well And I also organize the evening events Here which we’re now going online and we Have done some cheese and wine tastings With Patrick and it was a real natural Fit wasn’t it when we started working With the Academy of cheese that also do Qualifications in cheese parallel sort Of level 1 level 2 etc and so yeah it Was a real natural pairing to team up And do some some wine and cheese events And Patrick you can introduce your Cheese guru set off Thank you master of cheese does not yet Exist although it’s coming so I’m Patrick McGuigan I’m a food writer I’m a Cheese right there aren’t many of us in The country I arrive people from Mexico For newspapers and magazines the Telegraph the Financial Times delicious And I also am a cheese educated so there

Is an organisation called the Academy of Cheese you can see on the on the slide There which was set up a couple of years Ago now – it was a little cross industry Collaboration so you know cheesemongers Cheese makers cheese wholesalers came Together to set up an educational Qualification similar in some ways to The W SCT so we’re on we’ve we’ve I Think there’s been about 1,500 to 2,000 People who have taken level one which is One day course and then we launched Level 2 last year I teach both those courses and Eventually we’ll get to level 4 which Will be master of cheese we’re working On I work with the Academy eaters will Put together that some of the coursework And stolen and we’re working on level 3 At the moment but when you put Winnie I Just have to shake because I know you Were master wine Lydia so I thought I’d Been my badges just to you know just to Try and compete so when you when you do Level one you get a little a nice little Pin badge like this which says you’re an Associate at the academy teas and when You get to level 2 you become a Fully-fledged member and you get a brown One so yeah I mean at the moment some Teaching has stopped it’s generally done If you know in a classroom I work for The school to find food quite a lot we Teach near Borough Market actually but

We’re looking at going online as well And doing some of the courses so you can Actually sign up and do a few evenings a Week with me or another tutor online so That’s kinda mean yeah I should Obviously say yeah we’re also offering Our qualifications online at the moment As you can’t get to the school at the Road and some ones are the cheese Qualifications just for cheese makers or Cheese aficionados no I mean it’s a bit Like WS CT and the level one of the Academy of cheeses is open to everyone So we you know we have I’ve taught lots Of members of the public which is quite Interested in cheese you learn initially You learn about 25 key cheeses things Like mozzarella and parmigiano Reggiano And cheddar the sort of the basics and We have a something called a structured Approach to tasting which I can talk About later when were actually trying Some cheese but yeah members of the Public we have cheesemongers we have Cheese makers we have chefs but what’s Been interesting is how when it was set Up it we thought it would be quite in it Would be the industry that would really Want to take these qualifications but Actually it’s the public and so at level 2 which is a two-day course and requires A lot of home learning we’ve seen none Yeah I mean if the classes have been Full of members of the public who just

Really want to learn more about cheese Which is quite exciting and you know who Knows people start out as just sort of Keen enthusiasts and end up opening the Tea shop or becoming cheese making Happens the same with the wine motor People come and do a wine course and Then want to want to join the other wine Industry but yeah it’s just we’re the Same at our level 2 qualification it’s About 50% in the trade and 50% just People that enjoy wines so interestingly Liddie a lot of the people who are Coming on that on the Academy course Have done a quite a lot of the WS CT Courses there’s quite a lot of crossover Yeah Like wine and cheese I mean it’s a Natural and there’s so many similarities You know both fermented product there’s This sort of agricultural terroir linked That we you know that we’ve we’ve talked About in previous talks that you know They’re both sort of linked to the land In a similar way and sort of encapsulate Particular areas and geographies Absolutely but we also get competitive About where the wine or cheese wins Anyway if we start with just sort of Covering some of the basics because some People will know about wine but not so Much about cheese like myself or vice Versa So we thought we’d just look at some of

The ways we assess cheese and assess Wine and then look at how some of these Things that we assess can can work well Together but also we just thought you Know joining we’ve got our cheese boards Here but it’s really just about Experimenting as well and and having fun And trying the different wines of the Different cheeses yes we’re just gonna Teach you how to taste cheese first of All well so what you can see on the Screen there is the level one this is How we assess formally assessed cheese And you learn this at the academy of Cheese and actually is very useful I do A lot of cheese judging there are such Things as international cheese awards Particularly the world cheese Awards Where you have to taste your way through Dozens and dozens of cheeses in a few Hours and so getting into light with Wine I imagine you go to lots of Tastings lidyr and you have to kind of Get into a rhythm of how to properly Taste because it could be the tenth Cheese you try is an absolute World-beater And so you need to kind of get a system In place so you can see on the screen This is the form we fill out this is Just for level one level two gets even More involved but You can see we’ve sort of break it down Into it sort of the rind that the paste

And the interior so to begin with when We look at it even when I first get it She’s often I won’t know where it’s from If it’s a if it’s a competition for Example you don’t know often this blind Judging so you can tell a lot just by Looking at cheese you can learn a lot From the rind but also looking at the Paste so we would visually assess the Cheese first I’ve got a little goat Cheese here that I’m gonna try first and I know it’s a goat cheese or I can guess It’s a goat cheese even if I didn’t know It was because it is brilliant white Color which is a sign goat’s milk is Very white in color codes can’t absorb a Pigment as we go to do absorb a pigment Called carotene which is in grass and so Their cheese’s tend to be a very white In color carotene is the same pigment You would find in carrots so cows and Can’t absorb it and so their milk is Very golden so you often see sort of Cows milk cheeses that are made in the Summer when the cows are out pasture is Very golden in color but just by looking At is I can sort of guess it’s either a Goat or a sheep and because it’s it’s a Brilliant white and then also you can See it’s got and if you can see that Quite as a white bloomie rind which is Also telling me something as well so we Would assess the rind we would look at The paste and the interior so texture is

Really important in some beautiful Cheese modeling you’re doing they’re the Same ones we have so this is the larger Cheese It’s like a pacman if you hold it that Way so this is made by sharpen we were Based down in Devon but I’m and what you Would also look at textures so as well As visually assessing the cheese you use Your fingers you’d use touch and give it A good squeeze and get it’s quite Important as you when I’m writing about Cheese that you really pay attention to Texture because it’s a really key part Of the eating experience So flavor is is really important but Texture is is a key part of it and I Suppose that’s true also of wine but I Think even more so in cheese so you know We can look at if you look at the paste Interior section there we have worked The consistency section we have words Like mousse like that’s um not not the Animal we’re not we’re not with a Necessity but you know you some some of Those ghost cheese’s have very young Almost sort of fluffy you see textures You can get jewel textured and actually I would say this cheese which is good Tickle more you can certainly if you can See just under the rind it’s slightly Darker and slightly softer and then in The middle it sort of crumbly uh and an Ansel firmer but I would describe these

Cheese’s being dual textured and what’s Happening there is the mold on the Outside is breaking down the cheese just Like it would with a brie or camembert But because this is a firmer cheese it’s Not going to go completely gooey but it Definitely will have different flavor Profiles and a different texture so it Will be a bit more sort of fudgy under The under the rind whilst I can see from The image I’m not even tasted it yet you Can see it’s kind of crumbly over and Yeah and more and more compact at the Same time so then we would smell and you Can get the rind on this cheese that’s Quite a funny aroma I think they’re you Getting that and then like you said it’s Jewel textures I really there’s like a Clear line in mine where the center’s One one texture and the rind is almost a Bit more kind of translucent yeah really Yeah it sort of becomes and goes almost A bit sort of green in color yeah well He’s still brilliant white in the middle We’d call that two-tone you see it with There’s a cheese actually I’ve got it Here I didn’t nice cheese was so fashionable So this is going to Philly and you can See the same thing going on here Yeah they’re quite similar cheese’s Actually this is goat’s milk And this is cow’s milk but you can see That darker band where it goes to tone

And you get lovely sort of mushroomy Earthy notes from under the rind you can See on the Gaul if it’s got really Lovely mix tried lots of different molds And perhaps even some yeasts and stuff Going on there and they they sort of Change the texture to cheese so then we Would smell and level one which is Looking for is it like a high intensity Or low intensity and you look out for Things like ammonia which you get with Very soft cheeses when they’re a bit Over right they can smell a bit like Well like like you’re in basically I Mean if it’s very high in ammonia that’s Kind of would be considered before and Then when we taste level one at least we We we just go for basic families of Flavors we go for the five basics so Sweet savory acidity salts and bitter And then we look at families of flavors And so sort of dairy fruity floral Vegetal herbaceous notes mineral Chemical which could be sort of you Sometimes get metallic notes in blue Cheeses would perhaps fit into that and Then animal fungal fermented so that’s All those farmyard flavors mushroom and Sometimes you get really like funky Washed-rind cheese’s at level one we Just go quite basic it’s quite entry Level at level two we start going into Specific flavors so we might identify Dairy but then say okay are we talking

Yogurt or cream or butter or clotted Cream and that sort of thing so that’s How we taste it we use all at so it’s Sort of sight touch smell and then taste And as you said before the rind or the Outer parts can taste quite different Cut Nate today the inside as well so you Must have like different parts of the Cheese with different tasting notes yeah And on level two we have as we have we Have sort of areas to write notes on That so you would actually you know four Flavors you might have an area where you Make detailed notes on mushroom and Earthy and the rind Lactic and you know lemony in the center With a you know and also comment on the Texture so fudgy near the rind and Brittle and flaky near the center for Example the thing is with cheese lately Where you know where cheese does Trump Wine in many ways you have a one vintage For wine unless you’re blending and Doing kool-aid I suppose but typically You have so that’s like a year in a Bottle basically also cheese constantly Changes when you’re talking about Artists and small scale cheese makers it Literally changes day by day if you’re Making cheese every day it depends what The weather was like outside which bit Of the field the animals were grazing You know if they’re grazing on nettles And wild garlic it will impact the

Flavor if they’re if they’re on clover And grass it will impact the flavor if They’re in the shed eating hay that Changes the flavor and texture so Literally every batch is like a vintage And it can be quite frustrating you Think you know a cheese and then it’s Completely different the next time you Taste it I and I quite like that it’s Quite fun too you never really get on Top of it yeah I think one is the same Way just more in an elongated way like As it ages or vineyard to vineyard so Yeah let’s do some quick look at how to Taste wine and then we’re gonna get on To our pairings and we can talk through Some of these tastings as as we go so That’s the world cheese Awards they’re Just give you an idea when you’re Tasting you tell people they’re at the Front would be like that’s what I would Have to taste through in about three Hours Yeah and you think I just wanted to show You we use often with big cheese’s well If we want to grade them and test them Before they really we use something Called a cheese iron and then if you can See there which is like a sort of a Knife which you can see Morgan there From Catherine’s you plunge it into the Hard cheeses and taken then you can take Out a core of cheese and really assess It anyway let’s go up to the wine yes I

Just simmer as you said certain well as We got the levels we ask people to be More You think about what flavors they’re Tasting you also mentioned the Moose Which is funny because we’re going to Taste a sparkling wine and when we talk About moose it’s like the texture of the Bubbles in a wine but yeah I just wanted To highlight some of the things this is Our level two SAT systematic approach to Tasting and and yeah as you can see just To highlight some of the key things you Won’t go through everything that color And that that’s not so crucial to Cheddar cheese and wine pairing but what Is is flavor intensity so on the nose And the palate would say is there’s Something pronounced or quite delicately Flavored and I think when you’re Matching that with food if you’ve got Something you know a wine that’s really Intensely flavored you want a cheese That’s going to stand up to that another Key thing is sugar then we’re going to Finish up with this sweet wine and That’s something that can work very well An acidity so we have different levels Of acidity and that’s what makes your Mouth water when you’re tasting wine the Acid in there in the grapes and in the World makes your mouth salivate and That’s something that we’ll look at when Pairing as well as the body so you

Talked about different textures and the Cheese obviously with wine it tends to Be more sort of a uniform texture but The body is the mouthfeel and that can Be contributed by alcohol tannins and Red wines the sort of bitter drying Sensation that you get flavor Concentration and sugar will all give More body to wine and again I think That’s something you can think about When you’re pairing with any food really As is the texture and light research Delicate wines work well with dishes That are kind of lighter and then you’ve Got something really heavy and rich and Mouth coating you want you want the wine With Simson texture to it as well so I Just have to touch on some of the things We’ll talk about and and then equally Yeah flavors we split them into primary Which are things from the grapes of Fruits herbaceous things herbal notes Secondary so things from winemaking so Okjung or Lee’s aging with dairy Characters and then tertiary from Development so things like leather or Nuts or dried fruits as well but yeah I Think we should get get cracking onto Our first pair already And I’ll come back to this as well what Would discuss as we go through so yeah So you’ve got the semi-hard goats first Yeah so this is the one I was sort of Waving around earlier which is this good

Tickle moist great cheese Ashley it’s It’s it’s one that I come across every Now and again I don’t get it after I Live in Brighton in Sussex so this is You can see that’s the sharper mistaked In devon it’s quite near totnes a Beautiful place and they make wine some Really nice English wine actually We tried their barrel aged wine last a Couple of weeks ago didn’t which I Thought was delicious hmm and we tried That with it they also do so they make a Lot of goat’s cheese and they also do They have their in Jersey herd as well And they do a really nice creamy sort of A bit like a brie but they add extra Cream so they call it a triple cream Called Elmhurst and that’s what we Matched our son was we tried the sharpen Barrel aged with their Elmhurst and that Was a great match not wines I normally Drink where they’re sort of oKed and They had that sort of roundness that Really went with that very rich cheese As they’re talking about that body thing That they’re sharp and wine hat because Of the oking seem to have a kind of Richness to it And so yeah winemaking techniques we can Can add to the body of the wine and That’s certainly something to consider Though the one I have with this one is a Bit more of a kind of classic pairing Its Sauvignon Blanc with goats which

It’s something that’s kind of quite Quite classic pairing you know they make A lot goat cheese in the Nile Valley in France which is where sons there and pre Fumet are serving and brought wines come From I’ve actually got a New Zealand Sodium block here so this one doesn’t Have any root and is really kind of Crisp and fresh and fruity but I think That works with you know yeah like the Slightly lighter texture of goods and Then yeah if you have something rich Creamier like you said a brie or Camembert which will come on see then Then why making where you have some oak Or some Lee’s aging or something and can Match up to that texture but this it’s a Tickle more which is the cheese I’m Trying from from sharpen is he’s an Unusual and it’s not like the Loire Valley he goes cheese’s nice so then What everybody goes if you call them Sort of lactic cheese’s what that means Is just you you had your starter Cultures to the milk and then you leave The milk to acidify of a really long Periods that is like that it’s sort of Almost ferments by itself without the Addition of rennet but you do typically They add a little bit but they will Leave the milk in those little odd Cheese’s they come Sam Mulder terrain and Cotter and the Chef in your which you like

Voila and say they’re all from the Loire Valley so they they leave them and then Had a little bit of rennet at the end And they sort of they tend to have quite Wrinkly rinds and they tend to sort of Break down and be quite rich and soft And then get and and the rind really Breaks them down and they become quite Gooey underneath and this is not like That this is almost a bit more like a Calf in a tick more it’s all my Kathie Lee made with goat’s milk so it’s Crumbly goats this is quite unusual in The unit it is to be made with cows milk Like the filly I’ll show you earlier Or like or even something that it’s a Bit like a Tom de Savoie As well if people know that French Cheese so there’s mold action on the Outside of this cheese but because it’s Firmer and crumbly ER you don’t get the Same kind of gooey intensity so it Remains it’s a nice balance I think it’s Of the sense is nice and zippy and Lemony and lactic and then the round That round the rind is quite sort of Mushroomy but they balance out quite Nicely but with I’m actually drinking Some fizz with this I’ve I’ve not got Any steel yeah I think I think you can All be best to pee I’m doing Sauvignon And then fist but you could definitely Switch the man because what we found Always works is their City

Which is so crucial Estonian Berlin has A lovely bright acidity that just kind Of cleanses your palate so whether it’s The more kind of creamy traditional Goats or this it’s just a lovely Cleansing after it just sort of washes Away the cheese but it also yeah I think It really brings out the the citrusy Moats you’re talking about citrusy Characters in there it’s cheese and I’ve Got a quite punchy New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc the net which and usually you like Quite more evert than your lower stars And quite passion Beauty but with this Cheese it brings out some of those sort Of lemon citrus characters as well and Then they’re really lovely fruit and We’ve talked before about sometimes Wanting similar flavors to work together And sometimes you like the contrast and Yeah I think this has a bit of both You’ve got the kind of citrusy Characters in both but then you boss They’ve got the kind of mushroom Savoriness with this sort of slightly More exotic fruit as well so yeah I Really like it I think this chicken was in a really Good state at the moment it’s really Nicely actually free because I’ve been In my fridge for about a week or so yeah I think it’s matured quite nicely in the Bottom of my fridge have broke it down a Little bit that the white molds that you

Can see on on these cheeses and you find Them on camembert and Brie is a type of Fungus called penicillin caliber T or Sometimes known as Candida and listen When you see that you know that that Mold will work on the paste of the Cheese so with soft cheeses it really Breaks them down and you get you know if You think about a brie de Meaux it will Just go all the way through and you’ll Just have beautiful goo she’s looking That action creates interesting flavors So you know these cheeses are living Breathing things in that you actually Have a living organism the fungus on the Outside is actually changing the cheese Over time so even in my fridge you know This is this cheese looks quite Different to a week ago which I think’s Like I said yeah you’re kind of doing Your own cheese maturing at home I’ll Talk a little bit more we have a softer Cheese later I talked a bit more about How that works and what you can do at Home to make sure your cheese’s Are in good Nick because actually their Domestic free Is not a very nice place for Gees they Like called damp Cellars yeah exactly I was just going to say the clutter Under 70 all those classic noir French Cheeses the caves that they aged those In were originally wine caves but when

Phil Ochs our hit France and took out All the fines they had these wine caves Where they don’t know what to do with Them for a while and so they put cheese In them and in Crocs and – avignon is You know so there is that link that Really historic link between cheese and Wine and that part France oh yeah I mean They the same goes for the wine you want Some humidity and you don’t want it to Be too dry or too hot or too cold And and yeah the Tufo in the noir the Tifo rocket sort of really good Temperature control and yeah they’ll Store the wines under it and in the same Cellars Israel for them to mature so so Many crossovers and right shall we Should we move on to the next pairing Some questions some questions coming up I saw something about where is the Academy base yeah I think Tracy’s on it Tracy’s and but yeah just I mean I think You can experiment but I think Definitely if you have sort of crema Style cheese and greats then a white Wine with acidity and some sort of fruit Flavors sort of so no no unhoped usually I think is a good pairing I think that Was complements like someone’s asking is Riesling a good pairings yes also also Aromatic isida tea good work so yeah I Mean you just like there’s no right or Wrong you have to kind of work out what You like but yeah I definitely think the

Kind of the aromatic fruit flavors if of So umbrella Riesling and now you can see Pictured and the high acid I Particularly enjoy with those sort of Would you say cream eat maybe not creamy For goats but sort of mouth Coding you know the way all rip yeah not So much tickle more but those those Connealy yeah the goat log you know the Little pyramids they are they really Coat your mouth they’re very sort of Thumb they are creamy I mean there’s a Word that’s overused creamy but actually They genuinely are and so there’s Something having that acidity to pierce Through is really good I like those Northern Spanish and and put northern Portuguese wines like echo and very Similar the Deaf has very similar to Sauvignon Blanc yeah equally I I person Option I thought was British but if you Were really sort of into British wines Bacchus is quite similar as well so Basis and a lot of English wines have Really high acid anyway naturally Because we’re cool climate so anything Comes up more cool climate kind of Fruit-forward I think albariño even you know would Work with that sedition Starchy’s well I’m gonna move on to the Next that was just some of the typical Flavor characteristics that you you get Okay yeah so that was that’s why I put

Those images it just sort of you rather Than just put a bunch of grapes I Thought those are sort of fruit Characters or what we call primary Characters things like green bell pepper Asparagus grass citrus everything Through to sort of stone fruit tropical Fruit is what you can you can get the Sauvignon Blanc someone was asking about This cheese have to be served at a Certain temperature Well yeah ideally you want to be getting A cheese out of the fridge at least an Hour or so before you eat it it really It’s a bit like a red wine you know Having a really complex red wine if you Kept that in the fridge opened it and Drank it you dilute the cold really Suppresses the flavor you know pretty Much every cheese benefits from getting Up to room temperature Having said that there are no rules so If you like eating cheese out the fridge They don’t create I mean I migrated what You know if you wanna if you wanna If you like it a particular way then go For it and it’s the same with wine as Well I mean we’d recommend normally a Sparkling or a sort of lighter white Really cold and then if they have more Okjung and stuff a little bit a little Bit warmer something like 13 degrees Just so that you don’t mute any of the Flavors but you know it’s a hot day like

Today sometimes just want something Really Valpolicella vey typical and so What are you this is a me I’ve actually Got a camembert which is actually a Camera it’s very confusing slide I’ve Got a Sussex camembert which is a British style camembert and see they’re Saying which one of you go there Sussex camembert oh nice yeah that’s From sopping Walker I think that’s got Some good that’s that’s nicely matured That it was my sister’s shop so she and She said she’d picked me out one that Was in prime conditions in the middle There yeah there was yeah there was some Too I trimmed it off to make it look Nicer someone’s asked with these could You would you eat the rind and with These so stuff’s austerities in yes yes Yes yes definitely so let me do the Slide is extremely confusing so I’ve got I’m actually eating assessing another Sussex cheese called flower Marie which Is a sheep’s milk bloomie rindy cheese So you can again you can see using our New cheese skills that use that white Mold again so this is penicillin caliber T that’s doing the the breakdown but is Much softer than the tickle more and is Much more in that sort of Brie and And cannabis it’s mainly sheep’s milk And then I’ve put a picture of brie de Meaux on the slide just because I wanted To show talk a little bit about when are

These cheeses ripe and when do you eat Them and do you eat the rind and all That sort of stuff so you can see that Picture of brie de Meaux which is sort Of the classic raw milk French cheese Which is made mo is a village in just East of Paris and that region is a Protected – brie de Meaux is protected You can only maybe the moat in that Region and it has to be with warm milk But if you can see on the slide there There’s you can sort of still see a Slightly chalky Center – the cheese Whilst that’s all around it it’s really Broken down so again that’s that that Mold working on the paste but because It’s a higher moisture content cheese a Softer cheese it really breaks down and So give that cheese in the picture Another week and it would be full goo Like the one you’ve got Lydia yeah so And that is you know and so I suspect What are you getting off that when you Smell it and taste it what kind of Flavors I’m not the best at describing But yeah it’s a really different texture To the thicker crumbly goats it’s very Smooth and yeah there’s really quite There the rind is really quite strong Sort of mushroomy is that like the word Or sort of almost meaty like quite Savory when I say mushroom what kind of Mushroom I like cooked my shame is you Know yeah you’re all or something but

Earthy that’s yes definitely but yeah I Would say it’s quite sort of stronger Flavors than the goats and quite Different and that’s why actually we’re We’re looking at this Waco over there And I often I think as we mentioned Before people often they dig of Sparkling wines with cheese but I Actually really enjoyed the last time we Did an English sparkling wine with it Goat’s cheese which though it went Really well this time we’ve got an Carver but you could have a champagne or An English one but the key with This is its traditional method so and You see on the picture on the right it’s Got some similes aging so those that Sort of white sediment near the bottom Of the bottle it’s actually a rose a Champagne but same with your whites that They aged it on those dead yeast cells And that imparts this sort of ready Pastry biscuity sometimes you know the Longer it can go more toasty or kind of Nutty with time own characteristics and I actually really like that flavor Comparison with I probably described it Incorrectly but that sort of more Intensive flavor that you get on the on The the camera manner that I have is it Also has nice acidity your sparkling Wine so it’s kind of cutting through the Kind of quite richly textured center of The cheese but you’ve also got this tiny

Texture from the winemaking of the car Which I think kind of complements the Bit more intensity of the the camembert And Carvin like you say is also Protected it’s a little bit different Most most wine regions in Europe they’re Protected are quite snitch and carve is Actually quite a large area you can Actually make it in different parts of Spain which is unusual for a wine region Me and Patrick actually have the same One from from the coop we were we didn’t Have anything in the house but it’s Often own brands can be really good Value you can taste a little bit of that Kind of delicate kind of bready Characters and then the traditional Spanish grapes of macabeo Charl oh and Perry Aden and they give sort of a bit Of pair citrusy notes but it’s less In-your-face fruit than their Sauvignon Sisters more delicate but with that sort Of bready these aging as well and I Think I enjoy it was the only Carver I Could find at like 9:00 p.m. last night When I was trying to prepare today for That price I’m going to love some apples But definitely a bit of toasties action As well yeah it’s sort of like pastry And Apple people often say things like Apple pie because you’ve got the Slightly soft fruit but you’ve also got A little pastry character as well so the Cheat the cheese I’m trying is is so

This flower Marie So sheep’s milk is is extra rich and has A kind of sweetness – I love sheep’s Milk cheeses and people always just Think of manchego but and pecorino but There’s there’s been a whole wave of Sort of British sheep’s milk cheeses That kind of borrow from what they seen In France or Italy and then sort of Taking them off in weird directions and Flowery is is one of those so it’s a Square of the cube shaped sheep’s milk Brie I suppose I mean it’s really Unusual she sheep’s milk is incredibly Rich so it has about twice the butter Fat of cow’s milk and it has sheep some Cheese’s always have a lovely sort of Sweetness to them which I really really Like and there’s actually if you look at The British cheese Awards over the past Few years it’s sheep’s milk cheeses that Have one I’ve been supreme champion the Past three years I think from a company Called White Lake and it’s something About that sort of sweet GP they have a Slight animal thing going on as well Which is quite nice but with the toasty Notes and the apple and toast and the Sweetness of the milk so the Apple lead Toasty notes of the wine and then the Sweetness with the MIT I said it’s Really lovely I really enjoy them more sparkling Moment cheese actually think a lot of

People wouldn’t think of it at the end Of the meal perhaps you know in British Culture but I think it’s actually nice And it’s a kind of light pairing isn’t It you know the cava is like only 11.5% It’s not anything too heavy and it’s It’s actually really nice palate Cleanser I mean I think because I think With cheese’s everyone always just Thinks you have cheese at the end of the Meal yeah if you’re French you have it Before pudding which is what I do I Always before me too because I’m always Worried that if I have the pudding I’ll Fill up too much on the pudding and Won’t have room for the cheese which Would be a disaster so I always have the Cheese like the French do you know after The main course but actually if you go To Spain they often have a glass of Fino Sherry with some Manchego or a glass of Carver you know with some cheese before The meals begins like an aperitif moment And I do that more often now is that she I have cheese before so while I’m Cooking often as just a little snack as A little sort of entree really And so with sparkling wine works really Well at that point so that’s what we’re Doing now obviously we haven’t had Dinner yet so we’re starting with wine And cheese right let’s move on to the Next one I think we’ve got slightly Different versions I’ve still got some

Of the pitchfork cheddar that we had Last time which you can see is really Golden and age you should commend me for Actually managing to keep it for two Weeks it’s not yeah I know how big that Which was yes so I’ll come through the Wine first with this one shall I say Some vodka s so this is liquid Icaza Which is down in the southern Rhone I’m obviously you don’t have to have the Exact same wine but cote d’ivoire chat And if the package of Gondar territory So I put in a backrest and when we look At red wines with cheese pairing off They’re obviously from black grapes Hence hence the picture and you use the Skins when you’re making the wine here You can see all the color pigment there Is in the skin of the grape that kind of Blurry purple color and when you’re Using the skills in the winemaking That’s going to transfer color but it’s Also going to transfer tannin and that’s Sometimes what actually not everybody Enjoys with cheese because tannin dries Out your mouth it dries out your teeth And your gums Some people can find it quite bitter and Certain foods can bring out tannins and Make it more stringent so if you had Very spicy food like chili that can Really make the wine seem even more Drying for some people then that’s going To be unpleasant if you had like really

Spicy cheese equally if something was Really savory like lots of that Emami Flavor and not enough salt to counteract That then it’s kind of sometimes bring Out the the tannins so what I’ve gone For here Kind of right right so obviously we’re In the southern Rhone it’s a warm Climate lots of sunshine and the impact Of that on the grapes is too ripe in the Skin so you get really ripe tannins it Makes them sort of less as a stringent And nice and bright texture on the Palate it also opens the flavor and it Gives you a lot of sugar in the grapes Gonna give you some alcohol so yes we’ve Jumped up here from eleven point five to Fourteen and a half but this is a red Wine therefore with some body okay it’s Got lots of texture and therefore it’s Gonna suit a cheese that also has some Flavor intensity and simms and you know Texture and strength to it because the Wine does this has got a lot of bright Flavors from the grapes it’s a Traditional blender Grenache Syrah and More there are lots of kind of ripe Berry fruit it’s also we had some time In oak so that’s going to add texture And flavors have kind of clove cinnamon Smoke complexity and then it’s this is a 2015 which was a great vintage in the Southern Rhone and really fabulous warm Year lots of sunshine so you had lots of

Good fruit and but it’s got five years Aged as well if you ate this longer it’s Going to develop bit more of that kind Of leather dried leaves tobacco some of Those other flavors so it’s a really Complex wine as well and again got you Know the parallels with the cheese is Just kind of like an aged well aged Cheddar or you know matured Conte or Guiya where you’re also getting that you Know flavor complexity and intensity so That when you taste the wine you’re not Just tasting the wine and not really the Cheese or vice versa those the intensity Of those flavors stand up to each other So yeah Cheers I’m going to taste my Back wrasses rather delicious but I’ve Got a Grenache from the pace doc and It’s really good it’s got a lot of Cherry notes sort of like but some Licorice and cherry like dark cherry Notes going on and so the cheese Lydia’s Got a farmhouse cheddar from Somerset Called pitchfork which is about twelve Months I’ve gone for something a bit Stronger which is called double barrel And so the name kind of says it all Really see people might know a cheese Called Lincolnshire Poacher obviously made in Lincolnshire And double-barrel is the sort of the Vintage version of it so Lincolnshire Poacher is aged for sort of fourteen Months plus double-barrel is more like

Two years so they take it on and it Aging cheddar in this way the flavors Intensify and become stronger Particularly with these kind of Cheddar’s which is what more Traditionally made a lot of supermarket Cheddar’s are wrapped in plastic and When they’re aged didn’t really lose any Moisture as they age so essentially you End up with quite a squeegee cheese so If you know any block jetty – this one’s Quite squidgy But this is made with a with a kind of You can see the pictures there on the on The slide so they make that mean sort of Chuckles which lose moisture as they Mature and as they lose moisture the Texture becomes a bit firmer a bit Snappier and the flavors intensify so Double barrel is like it’s full not in Two year cheddar just you can see the Cheese maker there he’s named Richard Tag who’s their head cheese maker he Plays the trombone as well the tongues Things quite nice little aside and so When he when he’s waiting for the the Milk to ripen he’ll go off and play his Trombone for a bit but what he’s doing There is is called chattering and so you Know cheddar is made cheddar is the name Of the cheese it’s historically made in The village of cheddar which is in Somerset it’s also a verb and what you Do to cheddar is is those occurs you cut

Them into those loaves and you turn them And stack them and as you do that Moisture is squeezed out but also Acidity Rises and so when you you get The GU good farmhouse cheddar which Double barrel is you get really nice Tang and that cheddar tang and it comes From the chittering process that you can See happening there On the screen double barrels of big Beefy number it’s got real muscles you Know it’s it’s a it’s a cheese that is Kind of really savory but then also has This really intriguing pineapple know of Tropical fruit which with this wine that The Grenache I’m tasting from the Paste-up mines 14% so it’s got the body To stand up to the kind of savoriness of The chilies but I’m getting my extra Cherry from the wine which I think They’re kind of fruitiness with the Cheddar is sort of teasing out of the Wine yeah different but when you taste Them together they both get sort of Amplified in a really nice way yeah and You always talk about that is like Sometimes that’s the ultimate goal isn’t It is to have the wine and the cheese That just sort of lift each other up and And yeah I’m really enjoying that like You say it’s almost like the savoriness It’s bringing out the sweet sort of Strawberry ripe fruits even more of the Wine but then you’ve also got sweet

Spices a little bit kind of cinnamon Clove complementing but they both got The the power and the muscle was the Flavor intensity in the body and that is Sitting side-by-side nicely asking about What where can you buy good cheese in The supermarket yeah yeah the Academy Cheese have put a list on their website Haven’t they of cheesemongers and things That are delivering direct and doing Some parcels that you can get your hands On in the current situation so people Don’t tracy collie whose are answering a Lot of the questions on the on the group Chat is she works for the Academy cheese She’s their operations director and he Was my partner in crime for the British Cheese weekend and she’s right actually Supermarkets through a very poor job Most students do quite a poor job with Cheese it doesn’t really fit in good Cheese doesn’t really fit into their Distribution model which is you know Huge pallets delivered to central Warehouses and then shipped all over the Country a lot of these sort of artists And cheeses need a bit You’ll see they need looking after and Care particularly the soft cheeses they Really do need looking after you need Cheese mongers who keeping an eye on Them smelling them are they do they have Too much ammonia or not you need to cut That bit off they need a bit of looking

After it just doesn’t fit with the Supermarket really out of all of them as What as Tracy says Waitrose and booths Are probably the best but honestly I Would always recommend try and go to an Independent cheese monger or a farm shop Or a deli where they just have the Expertise to you know to look after These products properly and also they Tend to really look after the small Cheese makers in a way that perhaps the Supermarket’s tone they have sort of Close relationships with local cheese Makers and it’s just a bit more of a Sustainable system really and we found That with coronavirus and and the lock Down is that actually the supermarket’s Really focused on big industrial block Cheddar at the expense of some of their Smaller suppliers and it’s left quite a Lot of small cheese makers in difficult Situations and they’re being really Supported by their local cheese monger And farm shop and deli so yeah if I Always try and buy my cheese from a good Independent for my own benefit really Because I just think you get better Cheese between do the last pareo Questions at at the end as well and yeah So some crossover with with wine it’s Like anything obviously you’ve got the Larger produce stuff and then you have The money shot artisan and so what to Get to TV let’s go yeah well answer

Several questions here let’s look at our Final pairing and then yes you can you Can say where you can some some Recommendations or things with cheese so And I really enjoyed that but I well the Thing I was gonna say assaultin cheese Is great for the Reds it softens the Tannins and and I imagine or cheese Contained so but particularly and There’s really hard Aged ones right you almost get it like Crystals I always And it just makes the Redwine feel even Kind of soft dear fruity and richer and It softens the acid and tannins in the Wine which which I really enjoy And again we’ve gone for a kind of Classic one here but you can go more Unusual we have done some some other Pairings and well you haven’t talked About your green tea and things yet Patrick but we’ve gone if I go why but Yeah we can you’re going to stilted Mainly because I love it and if I was Going to have to buy some cheese for This I wanted to be able to eat it and Then I’ve actually got some Madeira in The house mainly because and you need to Drink it so I’ve actually got cinnamon Fifteen-year-old well which is like the Picture there you can see it’s brown Okay this one has had actually a white Wine originally but it’s had such Extended ageing and in contact with

Oxygen that it has gone really dark and Color really deep sort of brown and and These are fortified wines so they’ve Added alcohol that’s obviously gonna get The embody and texture which stand up to The the big blue cheeses this is also Sweet so there’s different styles Madeira and just a basic Madeira if you Look for rich on the label would be a Sweet style Otherwise if it’s got one of the grape Varieties on the label they go up in Sweetness sister she I can actually Taste fairly dry there is sugar in it But it’s it’s the driest of the before Then you have the dough then you have Well and then you have mamsi your Mother’s here which is the sweetest has About kind of poor levels of sugar and And the other thing I’m Tears you have a Cracking acidity it’s really Mouth-watering so I think that’s gonna Work beautifully where they can creamy You know the intensity of the the steel Tip and it’s just got so much flavor and They basically do everything to this Wine that you wouldn’t normally do okay You heat it you oxidize it and so it’s Aged in Bowers in the lofts on the Island of Madeira where it’s humid it’s Hearts so rapidly sort of evolves so you Don’t really have fresh fruit flavors Here everything you have Not sort of date sort Arnaz caramel

Toffee basically mad arised and and if That’s the real contrast I think with The flavors of the the blue cheese but It just kind of works it’s like salty Caramel you’ve got the street and the The salt you know these kind of Contrasting flavors so yeah tell it tell Us about the Stilton Patrick so um Stilton is a protected cheap so it has a You know like wine has AOC and and we Have some videos that cover food European rules and so Stilton is Probably our best-known protected cheese In the UK so it can only be made in Nottingham sure Derbyshire and Leicester Sure there are seven Stilton makers six Of them make blue one of them makes six To make blue and white but in this one That just makes white Stilton which has Its own video the smallest one is called Ambassy and so the pictures you can see Here so custom basset based in not to Take milk from just four farms and just Some of the it’s lovely to see just how Handmade this cheese’s so if you see That sort of top left picture of the two Chaps with hair nets to look like kind Of like needles or colanders with Handles well they’re doing is ladling The curds Their hand ladling all of the curd from One fat you can see the fat behind them Into another and they do that so they Can drain the curd most of the big steel

To make it was like your sort of text For duxford and tip it would just slop The curd down onto a table and the curd Will get quite broken up to do that and Then it would drain these guys literally By scoop by scoop transfer the curd to a Different fat so a draining table so They can preserve the texture of the Curd and keep it silky and together and Retain the structure of the curl And it really comes feeling constant Basses Dilton it’s very silky creamy but Then has these wonderful complex notes Of – attacking us and also meatiness Sometimes near the rind you can see how They’re they’re putting it at the bottom Left hand corner so they’ve got the the Curd they milled it up they put some Sort in and they actually pack it into Those molds by hand and just finally you Can see them grading the cheese using Their cheese iron which I talked about Earlier that’s a much better picture Actually you can see them so they’ll They’ll check that Stilton normally goes Out and sort of anywhere from 12 weeks Onwards but they’ll test the cheese’s as They’re maturing just to see how they’re Performing and whether they taste good And still turns a classic I mean it’s Really it’s one of the great cheeses of The world I think we should be proud of Stilton in the same way the French are With rock for and the Italians are

Gorgonzola Stilton is up there you know As the group amongst the great blues of The world and actually I got a press Release a couple of days ago saying Sales of Stilton a fallen 30 percent in The past during the coronavirus crisis And quite a lot of Stilton makers Particularly these small guys that Constant passing there’s a long called Cropper Bishop I’m finding it hard Because everyone’s just buying cheddar Basically and so we need to be Supporting these more speciality cheeses And particularly these smaller producers Because the danger is there’s only 7 Producers in Stilton and if we lose Three or four of them you know we’re in Danger of losing these really classic British cheeses and they are just Amazing I mean I mean it’s such a Seasonal pairing as well like Christmas Isn’t Christmas without we sometimes get Like a whole rounds like car for Stilton Just work on it for months you know with Ports and I would say Stilton is for Life not just yes no no I just I have It’s just like it just would be Chris Yeah I think all those flavored when you When you were talking about the Madeira All the flavors that you mentioned just Made me think of Christmas cake So it was like raisins and you know Those molasses flavors and and took Sugary notes and because a slice of a

Slice of Christmas cake with business Dilton is is one of God’s great Creations you know s matches but then Hand in a glass of Madeira Report and You just you’re off and you can and you Can make someone’s outside with tawny Port sweat better than vintage because They’re more oxidized like the Madeira I Was talking about but equally vintage Pour is going to work as well as a Flavor can complexity a little bit Fruity and someone else that they like a Must get the bone de venise with blue Cheese so any I think the key here is Flavor intensity and fortified wines Often have that because they’re usually For more climates and the winemaking Process is usually adds what’s the Flavor and then I always just love that Rule of salt sweets and combos well but The only particular dry wine Recommendations for Stilton well I was Gonna say someone was asking about Sharia about P X the Pedro human a Sherry with Blue Jays which i think is Almost a bit too much I would definitely I’ve actually got I’ve got a Palo Cortado sherry which works really well Which is sort of half way bits well you Tell me linear you’re the master Normally they’re dry obviously you can But yes so again if you don’t want sugar You could have dry sherry but just again With all that flavor concentration and

Some similar flavors that to the Madeira Absolutely We like one added alcohol just you know Picker and normal white of it but you Know needs to have some some some Intensity to stand up there before like Beers and ciders and things you know it Doesn’t have to be just one you can you Can go outside now you’ve said the B-word I would say blue cheese and stout And Porter over just it’s an absolute Failsafe combination so Stilton with Stout is just awesome because Particularly if you get Milk Stout which Has added lactose which is milk sugar so You get sort of sweet and style and I Like the fact that what they sweetened It with is a milk sugar so it’s this Lovely match if you put that with the Blue cheese that works really well Anything sweet with with blue cheese is Kind of gonna work I found I actually Did a tasting once where a woman came up To me and said I don’t like beer and I Don’t like blue cheese and I said try This blue cheese with some stout and she Tried them together and she was like I I Like that’s amazing I like together she liked them Individually she didn’t but and so I Felt that my work there was done you Know I could sort of you know I could Knock off early on that one and yeah I Think I think Sherry’s I love sherry on

A raw sown with some blue cheese is a Good one as well because that sweetness Brilliant right let me just recap them I Just put this slide up earlier and I Think it’s a little bit technical but It’s just some of the key pointers you Can take a screen shot if you like and That we’ve sort of covered so if often If a food sweet you want a sweet wine Because otherwise it can make the wine Singh Bedi dry and stringent but when It’s the other way around when there When the wine is sweet with the savoury You know unsweet cheese it kimete work Incredibly well but these are the things That are kind of a little bit more risky You’re gonna make your wine taste Harsher basically bring out the acid in Tenants or something to consider the Good thing about cheese is there’s Always a lot of salt Which is wines friends it’s gonna soften Tannins and acidity and make things Fruity also acidity as well so high acid In wines is really good at cutting Through fattiness in cheese or pairing With acidic things and so yeah just some It and then a flavor intensity that We’ve touched on as well is like kind of Matching the intensity of the cheese and Intensity the wine so nothing kind of Neither overwhelms the other but yeah I Mean obviously I think the key is Experimentation as well isn’t it

Obviously if you don’t like sweet wine Then experiment with what you do like And indifferent cheese towers and Nothing is really outside nothings you Know not possible it just depends on Your preferences and some tracy’s as Well Shalu me and the barbecue is Calling her so yeah we just prefers our Details of you’ve got the Academy cheese If you’re interested G’s courses you’ve Got the diversity school in London for Our wines spirits and sake courses and Both mine and Patricks details as well I’ll still go pudding number will stay On and answer some more questions so you Can get more outraged if we just like to Say I am gonna start one of the new Things I’m doing during the lockdown is I’m gonna start doing some more online Talks and tasting so possibly actually Didn’t the Academy of cheese courses Online it’s something I’m looking Through the next few weeks so if people Are watching you know follow me on Instagram and Twitter or drop me an Email and you know I’ll let you know About courses when they’re going to Happen but yeah I think it’s it works Quite well so yeah look for me and I’ll Help you out with some cheese knowledge And as soon as the school is is back Open for events we’ll definitely be Doing some more actual cheese and wine Tastings so you can taste in person not

Just watch me and Patrick eat cheese on Your screen but yes thank you everybody For tuning in