Exploring terroir in cheese and wine with Patrick McGuigan and Lydia Harrison MW

Okay so welcome everybody thank you for Joining to exploit into why in cheese And wine with myself and Lydia Harrison And Patrick McGuigan and you can see Hopefully you can see and hear both of Those ends and see the slides you can You can pin us if not anyone else is a Mute because we are recording this but Please say hello in the chat you can ask Us any questions One of us which I monitor it the other The other one is talking so Patrick you Want to introduce yourself festival Hello everybody my name is Patrick McGuigan I am a cheese writer I’m a food Journalist based in Brighton on the South coast of England and yeah I mean Writing about food in general for about 20 years and I specialized in cheese for The past sort of 12 to 15 years and it’s Given me a great opportunity to go and Visit cheese makers choosing the jurors Cheesemongers all over the world make Cheese with them and learn about what They do so I I I write for newspapers And magazines I do a lot of judging at The world Cheese Awards there is such a thing Where we sort of professionally assess Cheeses and I run training courses for The Academy of cheese so I’m sort of Here on behalf of the Academy of cheese Which was set up a couple of years ago I Think three years ago now I mean the W

Se T was was quite inspirational for the Academy of cheese so what we try to do With the Academy cheese is similar in Some ways to what happens at the W SCT So it’s about increasing knowledge and Expertise and appreciation of cheese and We have eventually there will be four Levels the fourth level will be master Of cheese So far we’ve launched two levels level One and two level one is a sort of one Day course and level two is a more Involved two-day course and there you Have an exam at the end and it’s a it’s A industry-recognized certification Which started in the UK but actually is Now branching out and we have online Courses that you can do if you’re in Spain or Israel or China wherever you Are in the world you can tune in and Take the course online I’m actually Running some online courses maybe I’ll Put the address up later but I’m Starting one next month and it’s the Level 1 course and I’ll do it over sort Of three webinars if you’re in the UK I Can send you the cheese if you’re Outside the UK I can send you a list and People combined so that’s me Thank You Patrick and hello everybody I’m Lydia Harrison I’m a master of wine as of last Year and I work at the diversity school In London so it’s the wine and spirit Education Trust flagship qualification

Provider and yes myself and Patrick have Posted not-so-fun cheese and wine once In person before and since since the Lockdown we’ve been doing some online so We yet we do qualifications in wine Spirits and sacking and actually Developing some in beer you’ll be Pleased to know Patrick yes but only After I’ve done the new qualification Yes so we do qualifications from level 1 Beginner to level 4 diploma in wines Which is the sort of really high-end Qualification and I also organize the Events at this course at the moment We’re doing as webinars you can have a Look and the website under tasting Events to see what’s coming up and you Can also look under student information Maybe no recordings to watch back on Other cheese events that I’ve done Patrick or other wine events if you want Sir to watch any of those back as well So excellent I think we should get Cracking talking about to work as we Always have so much to say but that’s Just a little bit of an intro of how to Pass and Alice who’s joined the group Chat Alice McCourt She works for the academy of cheese She’s on there sort of If anyone’s got any specific questions Alice can can answer them on the chat About the the Academy brilliant Thank You Alice for fielding those so yes I

Seem to be first up on this one which is It is quite hard to define – why people Have different interpretations of it and We thought we would look at what what I Would interpret it meaningful wine and Then Patrick what he he would see to are Meaningful for cheese but there’s lots Of crossovers which hopefully we’ll Explore as we as we go through the Session and I see terrorising really Rewards encompassing terms so and you Know all of these things listed some People will focus more perhaps on Climate or perhaps the first three Elements but I see as the sort of whole Sense of place of where they’re one Comes from and that for me incorporates Everything so the climate whether that’s The broad climate of the country but Micro climate of specific vineyards and Plots soil really important and I’m Going to touch on that particular with One of the wines so what I’m going to do Is you go through as I’ve chosen one of The wines to talk about climate one of Them’s soil and one to talk viticulture Practices a couple you to do this sort Of viticulture practice in the Winemaking so to bring out some elements As we go through an aspect as well so What way is your vineyard facing how Steep is it the slope all of these Things that can have an impact on Growing your grapes and ultimately the

End taste of the wine what you plant the Grape varieties you know how they’re Planted so are they close to the ground Are they trained really high all of These things can affect ripening are you Farming organically or sustainably all Sorts of different bitter cultural Practices from just choosing the point Of harvest all of these things can Impact the wine and give you know this The style and taste and why making so For me to I extends into the human touch As well because often when we you know We have a wine that we can really Identifies tasting from a specific place That that’s not just everything that Happens naturally but it’s also the Human influence in the vineyard but also In the winery and how they Then sort of amplify the two are in the In the wine as well so will will talk About all these different things as we Go through it is pretty complex Yeah that’s for me the key elements and That’s a lovely picture of New Zealand There just to showcase but obviously you See so many different pictures of Vineyards and different stars of and Waists growing great and I feel like Patrick’s explanation of toe-up might be A little bit more long-winded so I’ll I’ll hand you a bit well I originally When we did these slides Lydia put the Cheese terroir slide first and then sent

Them to me and then I changed them round And put the wine tower slide first Because for me it’s my reserved word That I immediate immediately associated With wine rather than cheese and I think In a way the idea of terroir comes from Wine and and it sort of fed as fed into Cheese and people now talk about tearing Cheese but yeah I don’t know it feels Like I’m sort of interested I think it’s grown from wine and I was Thinking about well what there’s two are In cheese mean and I so I’ve come up With the list of things which do overlap With what Lydia’s talked about so Climate and soil are important in cheese You know if you someone is really being Better explained as we go along and eat The cheese’s but so the actual you know The what’s in the soil you know the type Of geology I suppose can make an an Impact on the grass that grows or the Plants that grow that the cows then eat Or the goats they’re neat and and that Does translate through into specific Flavors in cheese but obviously Livestock are also often fed as well so As well as forage which is what they They find in the fields and in the Pastures they’ve also given feed and and So cows can be fed anything from turnips Through to fermented grass which is Known as So often in the summer uuuugh you cut

Your grass if you’re a farmer and in the UK you you ferment it you pickle the Grass and so if you’ve been on a train I’m out in the countryside and you see Those big pits covered in black Tarpaulin with car tires on top of them That’s a silage pit and therefore Menteng grass which they will then which Keeps it and then they feed it to the Cows during the the winter and all of That has an impact on flavor animal Species you know there’s a lot of Difference between buffalo milk and Goats milk and sheep’s milk and breed so Even you know there are lots of Different cow brains that will give you Slightly different types of milk animal Welfare if the cows are being kept in a Lot or are free-roaming will have an Impact seasonality so you have a Lactation cycle with animals so you know At the beginning they tend to have quite Rich milk and then lots of fats and Protein in the milk and then it becomes Thinner and then towards the end of Their lactation cycle it will get Thicker again so all of those have an Impact on the cheese what you know what You do to the milk when you get it in The dairy obviously has an impact and Then that last one which i think is the Big difference really with wine Although lydia you may well contradict Me which i’m sure you will but back

Bacteria in particular are absolutely Essential to making cheese you can’t Make cheese without bacteria it’s part Of the you know cheeses of fermented Food and what does the fermenting are Things called lactic acid bacteria and You can add those and cheese makers do They add them you know sort of the Lab-grown bacteria to their milk but Particularly with raw milk cheeses which We’re tasting today there are all sorts Of unique bacteria that you find on the Grass on the animal like the udder of a Cow has quite unique bacteria that in Raw milk will will have an impact Actually in the dairy and from the Cheese maker and also finally if you see The picture there will in Chewing room you have bacteria and also Yeasts and molds so fungus that all have Big impacts on flavors so you’re right Lydia I was quite long winded in my Explanation you know you always going Toward eatin and always think I should Have mentioned that but it’s very the Same you know that’s why I wanted to Incorporate why making because Ultimately you know people because they All Oaks not not they to war it can mask The flavors are the one but actually the Same concepts go into oak and there is It from a specific forest and and they Can pick different boughs to have Specific tastes and obviously that will

Impact on the wine as well and so yeah For when I my understanding I look at The Univ complete picture of what goes Into making that wine that’s the way I Had a question about yeast in winemaking This that that’s the the driver of Fermentation isn’t it the do winemakers Use different strains of use do they use Wild yeasts how does that have an impact On flavoring wine yes this there’s lots Of different strains of sacrum I see Service out which is the the use that Ferments but before that one becomes Dominant as well there’s a succession so There’ll be other yeast species and that Will then die out as the alcohol Increases or as the the sacrum icy Strain becomes dominant so it’s like a Successive process and then you you Naturally got use like what we say why Would you Sam being used in the Atmosphere in the winery that can Complete can can you know spread and Grow and populate and perform the Fermentation or you can just add a Specific strain my second my series if You want you know perhaps it to work at Cooler temperatures for a cool Fuhrman Or if you want one that and produces Releases certain particular flavors and Aromas so you there’s lots of different Particular strains as well within that That you can choose because the the Ferment the driver of fermentation in

Cheese is bacteria not yeast so It’s a particular type of bacteria that Feed on the sugars the milk sugars which Is lactose and and then they produce Acidity essentially as a you know they Consume sugar and kick out acidity which Helps set the milk and makes it safe Because if you’ve got quite an acidic Environment it stops bad bacteria Growing but then they also play really Important part There’s enzymes in the bacteria that When you’re maturing to break down the Cheese in certain ways and different and Different bacteria will break down the Cheese in different ways and give you Different flavors and different Volatiles so and the yeast and yeast and Mold bit with cheese is more in the Maturing room so you find that more on The rind of cheeses or actually within The cheese you know like in a blue Cheese that’s penicillin rock 40 which Is a particular type of mold and they Can be all they can be quite unique to a Particular place but we’ll come to that Think it’s probably easier as we eat and Drink – yes but yeah definitely Obviously particular vineyards can have Specific strains of yeast that there’s Been some I think in New Zealand where They you know they haven’t found that Straining anywhere else in the world so They would say you know if they want to

Use that and be unused it’s part of They’d say well but bacteria is still Important in wine it’s about though yeah Not not the negative stuff but yeah Let’s move to the first cheese and you Can and we can incorporate all these Elements as we as we go through Hopefully or some of them yes so first Cheese this is really so this is ban on Now all the cheese’s tonight have been Lydia and I are tasting are from Brilliant cheese monger in London called La fromage Cherie set out by Patricia Michelson and they there as the name Would suggest there they’ve got a lot of Strong heritage in sourcing continental Cheeses particularly French but they Also do lots of really good British Cheese as well and so ban on as you can See it’s from I’m just going to move Sorry I can’t see My own say yeah so it’s made in their Sort of Oprah Vons region which is sort Of bottom right-hand corner of France Quite it’s not you’re not fully into the Alps at this point but it’s quite hilly Ze quite high up and you can see from That picture the terroir if we’re Talking about the actual landscape it’s It’s quite hilly it’s quite sparse and Gets very very hot in the summer as You’d imagine so you know well over 30 Degrees you know cows would struggle in This this landscape but it’d go to quite

Tough animals and there is a particular Breed a Provencal goat which is quite And you can see that there which is Quite a hardy animal can consorted to on Anything really so it’s quite it works Quite well with this kind of scrubby Landscape and they you can see and I’ve Got my if you can see my cheese it’s Wrapped up in a in a leaf or several Leaves actually which is some it’s a Goat’s milk cheese wrapped up in Chestnut leaves and it’s very ancient Cheese they’ll be making this cheese in This part of Provence for hundreds and Hundreds of years and originally the Leaves would have been used almost like Packaging to protect the cheese you know Before refrigeration wrap it in chestnut Leaves and it would protect the cheese In these quite sort of harsh climate They they also I mean they keep that as A sort of a nod to tradition now but What it does is when the cheese is Enclosed all wrapped up you get sort of Unique molds and it creates a little Microclimate for the cheese almost like It’s only frapped cave for the cheese And so you get unique kind of molds a Mix of molds and yeasts growing on the Outside of the cheese which break it Down and you can see that you can see it On that one and in the picture there you Get this real mix of different things Going on some of that used some of its

Mold and there will be bacteria as well No doubt what’s interesting about these Cheese if you go to northern France Where it’s a lot cooler What they do is they’re called lactic Cheese’s if you go to the Loire Valley Things like Croton – avignon and Sam Moore the terrain what they do is they Leave the milk out for about 24 hours to Slowly acidify and so those bacteria That I talked about will will slowly Kind of convert the the sugar into Acidity and that will naturally start to Curdle the milk if you left milk out in This part of France for 24 hours in the Height of summer it would it would go Off and so what they do with these Cochise is they add R in it they main is Cheese really quickly actually so they Get the milk they have some bacteria and Then add rennet to set it really quickly And so and then they can wrap it up and Store it and so the texture is quite Different it’s quite smooth paste like Whilst some of the lower cheese’s will Be quite crumbly because they’re high Acid so this cheese has been developed Uniquely to suit the the area that it’s Made in you know it’s been wrapped in Local leaves it’s it’s using rennet to Create a sort of quick-set cheese Because it’s so hot so is that our Lydia That’s my question does that count as Tara with that count in wine as Tara

Yeah I think so I think there’s lots of Different interpretations what I would Want to ask is and because that’s what I’m going to focus on with some of the Wines perhaps is you know why is this Different to say other goat’s cheese What flavors would you pick out that for You that are specific because it for me I’ve tasted some and it’s it’s Definitely a lot stronger yeah I’m not The best at describing the cheese so for You what is it that makes this cheese Sort of ban on its punch it’s quite a Shot it’s quite a goatee goat cheese Those sort of classic french lawar Cheeses are much certainly when they’re Younger and much milder and creamier and Sort of cleaner in a way There’s so much mold activity going on On the rind of this which is which is Coming from that using the the chestnut Leaves the leaves will also be often be Soaked in a local odor Thetis or Sterilized them and I think with this One I was speaking to the cheese monger La fromage and they were saying they use A kind of plum odv to sort of sterilize The leaves but I think that will add Flavor to it but it’s because it’s quite A thin cheese so you get a lot of mold And yeast development and then they Mature the cheese from the outside in And so they break down the cheese and Mine’s going really runny now and it’s

Coming everywhere which is delicious He’s great but as as the molds and the Yeast work on the paste you get you know Breaks down and releases flavor Volatiles so it’s quite it’s I mean you Can sort of it’s quite punchy it’s quite Pungent isn’t it definitely all right Well let me just have a little talk About the wine cuz obviously that was Down near Provence we could have chosen A Provence raisin stuck with the sort of What grows near each other it goes Together but I thought and as we’re just Off the back of English one week we Would go for an English rosy so that all The wines went French you make on have Everything coming conference and this is Chapel down so they’ve got the picture There and English rosy they have they’re The biggest English I won’t make oh and They have vineyards all throughout the Southeast so Kent Essex and Sussex and What I really wanted to demonstrate with This wine was was climate and that’s why I went fitting them because obviously We’ve got a really cool climate sort of Just on they’re able to grow grapes and For me that has the green well Defining influence on the style of wines From England which increases and the Acid decreases and in a cool climate That’s going to have been into it too This is greatly of wines with very Noticeable acidity I love them really

Sort of clean Very sort of miscible acid backbone and Really fresh believe it is when so Whereas perhaps you know Rosie from Aquatic climate might have if you think Like a Californian Zinfandel for example White zinfandel be really like bait Strawberries streets quite affected not Loud at all this is actually very much Like fresh English strawberries that are In season at the moment ice of citrus Notes as well and so for me here in a Climate and definitely impacting this Lovely city quite low is but with this Yeah so you know I’m dealing mainly Pinot Noir said percent peanin mom stick Teams and region and then a little bit Of my making as they do and basically They do a whole bunch press so normally With roses you might have some skin Concepts and maceration to get the color But here they just go straight for a Whole bunch press so you get a really Delicate pressing and the only time the The juices in contact with the skins is While you’re pressing so maybe you know Three four hours and in the press so you Just get lots of City and lots of fresh Fruit flavors apologies if there’s a bit Of sound issues peak time I can hear you Much better now but you’ve there you go You’re starting to move again now okay Sorry Just sometimes did the internet but yeah

It’s a really fresh clean rating for me It’s all about the climate this lovely Acidity Zelikow really kind of fresh Lena broadly and they do the winemaking To accentuate that this delicate Pressing no one you know cool Fermentation so you just have those Lovely kind of fresh strawberry Raspberry and iced teas And so that’s what I wanted to highlight Here that actually isn’t a picture of Chapel down that’s a term I haven’t been Unfortunately but I have been to denby’s Which is or since that’s a picture of an English video and you can see it’s so Green you know we have rain here lots of Rain for cooler temperatures and the Wines to me reflect that there’s this Lovely kind of bright acidity through Them but also because we have a cool Clime you get a nice slow ripening and You’ve got long daylight hours in this Cool climate so you get this sort of Build up with fruit concentration as Well have you’ve got the same rosy cheek Yeah I’ve got exactly the same rosy and So in you know what you would drink in The South of France if you in Provence With a ban on go-sees you you would Drink rosy but you know southern France A provençale rose a would be much bigger Fruit with less of that freshness yeah Exactly so I’m talking about you know Why if you were blind tasting obviously

I think Rose is an interesting I wanted To talk about it because a lot of people Go Rosalie tastes the same but actually They have very subtle differences in Climate is something that really Displays itself in the nature of the Fruit the alcohol the body the acid in Provence you’d still get some acidity be It would be less than England you get More alcohol normally about 13% yeah It’s coming based on since then – you Get that kind of ripe of fruit and so You know I think there are subtle Differences yes i affected me that Dobies is in sorry I always get confused Change my counties and not good sorry Suffix just to show an Englishman please Don’t don’t you know kill me for that You know it’s quite a sort of definitely Right on that sort of English strawbries Read French nice freshness and the Cheese is the cheese is actually quite It’s quite powerful I mean you asking About specific flavors it’s quite hard When people are asking and you’re Tasting and I’m getting a lot of vegetal Notes from the Cheese is quite quite sort of um you can Almost taste the tannins in the leaf as Well I think there’s a sort of tannic Almost just like bitterness at the end And I could see why you know if you’re Drinking a more robust rose’ with it That would work they would kind of you

Know they would meet each other and kind Of take each other on by I actually Quite like this it’s quite light it’s so It sort of it’s that acidity kind of Washes it away no but then the cheese Comes back again at the end so you taste And you do taste the wine and it’s all That you get with that little burst of Lovely red fruit flavors and then the Cheese kind of sits back from it and Then it sort of you get a second wave of The cheese but an interesting match There yeah I saw the goats they would be A bit too overpowering for the cheese so It brings out some of that kind of Raspberry berry fruit yeah the wine Tastes like it has got a couple of Grounds for like three grands but you Normally wouldn’t notice it but with the Cheese it does come out a little bit and The acid is just lovely because it’s so Cleansing but yeah I think this would Work well with other you know perhaps Less pungent goat cheese as well would Be really I I bought a left-field drink To the to the party just because you Know I had it in the fridge and I’m Doing a tasting radio next week so I’ve Got a white port from Newport brilliant Producer in in Portugal and so this is This is a dries as a dry is called dry Why is there white rabbit and that Because that’s got a lot more kind of Oomph about it and I tried that earlier

With the cheese and it went really well As well as they’ll have that acidity but Then because it’s a fortified wine it Sort of had a they had some oomph to it As well which kind of stood up to the Ban on brilliant right should we move to The next cheese and wine pairing There’s a suggestion saying that maybe You should switch to audio only Recording Sakura okay so next cheese is An english cheese It’s way before cheddar was king in the UK in England Cheshire was king and so in those sort Of 16th and particularly 17th century Cheshire became the cheese of choice in The UK particularly in London and it was There was a huge demand for Cheshire They used to make these whopping big Cheese’s and send them down to Porsche London cheesemongers like Paxson Whitfield on barges and on sale ships That would actually you can see where Cheshire is made on the map there so in The northwest and it was it was the it Was the Jesus and then slowly sort of Cheddar in the sort of 18th and 19th Century sort of overtook it and became The the world-famous cheese that it is Now and Cheshire really lost its way and Today there’s only a few producers left Who make it in a very traditional style You can buy lots of industrial Cheshire Which is pretty rubbish if you ask me

It’s very sort of acidic and crumbly but The one line we’ve got today on our Board is um beautiful orange color which Comes from the addition of a vegetable Dye called a natto which he find in a Lot of things like red Leicester as well It’s very traditional thing to do it’s Completely harmless and tasteless but it Makes the cheese look gorgeous And they would have done that hundreds Of years ago as a kind of marketing tool For it for a cheese to stand out on the Cheese counter you make it make it Orange and it sort of looks good and a Picture in terms of toe are because the It’s the region is made it is the Cheshire plain which you can see at the Bottom there it’s very flat this part of Cheshire it’s sort of stretches from This to the Mersey valley in the north Down to the Shropshire hills in the South and it’s bordered either side by Sort of The paintings in the east and in the West you’ve gots of the Welsh mountains But you’ve got this beautiful flat Farmland underneath that Basin is lots Of salt and I’m actually salt there are This region of Cheshire there are still Salt mines in Cheshire So sacs are table salt which you might Know of most of it comes from this part Of Cheshire and Cheshire when you’re Talking about sort of farmhouse Cheshire

May be Romeo where the cows are eating This grass has a minerally almost salty Quality to it which comes directly from You know this is proper to are in my View this is the soil through the grass Through the cow into the milk and into The final cheese and this is made by one Of the well it is the best Cheshire Maker in the world basically which is Applebee’s and although they may Applebee’s Cheshire they’re actually Based in Shropshire which is a bit Confusing but as I said at the beginning The Cheshire plain goes in terms of North Shropshire and so historically Would have been made there It’s a crumbly cheese it’s it’s about Three or four months old this one cow’s Milk raw cow’s milk and you can see they Make it in a very traditional way they Bind it in cloth and those are those Sort of green screw like machines that You can see are run presses and so that You know most presses when you visit a Cheese maker are hydraulic presses but They’re still using the old fashioned Historic screw presses that would have Been used hundreds of years ago so this Is a cheese that’s really rooted in its Region and its toe are I would say thank You it’s delicious do you like it yeah We’ve got the texture it’s flaky hmm I Mean there’s lots of these is lots of These regional British cheese’s like

Wensley Dale and Lancashire a lot of the Day I was Jesus this cheese is like cod The day and swelled though and they’re All quite young cheese’s you know three Or four months old And they tend to be quite moist and I Had this beautiful acidity and flakiness And and when they’re done well they’re Brilliant but they’ve been done so badly By industrial producers that people Think they’re all the same and they’re Not you know if you can find a good Small producer of these cheese’s they’re Brilliant all right so with this talking Of minerality and its awareness of Complex words in wine and problem but I Wanted to show Chablis because for me This is a Chardonnay that definitely I Think epitomizes to her which one of you Got slightly different I’ve got the main Broccoli which is the one in there the Picture of a mean and for me yeah Shadley sort of obviously that’s one It’s my swag but I used to love it in a Blind tasting because it’s such a sort Of different expressionist John they Could always pick out and and that’s a Combination of things but I definitely Wanted to talk about the soil here and That’s a linkage we’ve got Patrick with Saying with the Appleby’s to show you Where it is so we’re in northern France This is a climb out because it is that Much further north than the rest of

Agency so that again gives you lots of Acid and sort of more citrusy green Fruit flavor characteristics but the Real thing here is there is the soil and It’s not quite as straightforward in Wine that you go okay this is growing on A chalky sauce so you literally taste Chuck in the wine and there’s a lot more Kind of science behind it and they’re Still actually a lot of things that Aren’t I understood that you they don’t Understand the connection because we Sort of we pick on that when we want see You know when you want to say oh this Wine has it sort of Flint in it’s like I Do believe shall you do taste something This and flinty or staining but then you Don’t say that with other sort types you Don’t say all this wine tastes sandy so It’s not like a direct kind of all the Flavors go straight up you know and into The into the grapes but there’s Definitely obviously this sort Definitely impacts on the vine in lots Of ways that we do understand and also Some ways that we don’t understand but Things like tempered The availability of nutrients Microorganisms water there’s so many Things that ultimately then impact on The grape and the fuller profile and in Chablis and there’s two types of saw Those Portlandia and clay and Kim Originally Portlandia is more limestone

Based it tends to actually be on the Lesser site so I’m more in the petty Family Appalachians and this is why tell Are so linked to wine because you know That’s the way these systems have been Defined you know the Appalachians are Made on you know where your view is what So what great puke on how you make it That’s the basis of it so the king of Region so is is so that years and years Ago it was actually at the bottom of the Sea and it’s got limestone it’s also got Clay and mile which is Claire and Limestone and you actually get these Fossilized oyster shells and things in The soil which is what I’m grilling They’re looking very pleasing myself and Holding up and you know obviously that I’m not going to say you can literally Taste like the one but there is this Unique mineral stony steely Flint enos To to Chablis and it tastes in such a Specific way and that I love and that Cam region soul is in the village level Shadley which this is and the Premier Cru in the quarry site so they clearly Recognized that you know this soul makes Better quality wines and and you do Taste that element in the wine in these These better quality wines This is domain broker I really firmly What generation fourth-generation run Really good producer and they they Specifically make this wine and the

Village level with no oak stainless Steel so that you you literally really Taste that sort of unadulterated cool Climate Chardonnay and we opened it Yesterday I had a cheeky tennis last Night suits beforehand and it’s tasting Even better today Lonely kind of citrusy notes that slowly Steel enos and they’ll do malolactic Fermentation so you’ve met bacteria Patrick and this is the softening of the Acidity and wine so they use lactic acid Bacteria to soften the malic acid really Harsh acid into lactic acids you do get Some milk some supplementary secondary Notes are kind of yogurt that I tend to Get in in Sharlene True yoga rather button Lydia this is This is the match absolutely knockout And all of the things you’re talking About that you’re good see flavor Because I think Cheshire has that it has A tang to it but it’s a it’s that sort Of yoga ttang those those dairy notes But it also has a beautiful sort of Savory quality I think Applebee’s Cheshire it’s one of my all-time Favorite cheese’s but because it’s quite Subtle but has great length and Complexity which is a bit it doesn’t Give everything to you straight up you Have to kind of work it in a bit but There’s lots going on but it’s just it’s Not big brass band flavours it’s more

Sort of subtle the minerality and the Yogurty stuff that you get in the cheese And they stay for me in the wine and They’re just like taking you up to sort Of another level is really picking up on Each other bouncing off each other Really good match that someone’s asked Is is Kent kin region – or – I’m not Sure if it stretches to Kent there Definitely is though actually the same So it’s more like champagne that the so They have a chalky soul and it’s Actually the same geology based in the Gun goes under the and Channel and it Does pop up in in Kim origin and in the In the UK I think it’s more as you’d Know my English geography so I think It’s – F my more Dorset way but but they Dink n in it chapel down they do have Some chalky souls but also some some Play and some loan as well a lot of People say oh I don’t like Chardonnay Can’t stand Chardonnay and that drives Me mad because Chardonnay can be Anything there’s so many different Expressions of Chardonnay aren’t there I Mean it community it can be so different And so this is you know I mean I think a Lot of people think of Chardonnay is This of the big new world heavily oak Wines but this is so like say steely and Elegant and It’s completely different isn’t it Amazing it’s the same quaint exactly and

That’s why I think yeah I think shine They especially always expresses to our And then why making the climate Everything about where it comes from Should we move on to the next one so We’ve got a time to comment if I could Stay with that Cheshire It’s a great all-rounder Cheshire you Can have it for lunch great and Breakfast Bringing a cheese board makes the best Cheese on toast Seriously amazing right we all know it I’ve got to get me drink sorted out yeah I love mo cheddar so you’re going up to Scotland and um I’ve got some some pinot Noir so I can talk about the pinot noir First if you want if you skip on to the Wine pouring and so this I went to New Zealand I’ve been there and this is Central Otago so again obviously you can Get some great Peter Watson baggage in California and New Zealand but they’re Three countries that really I think do Piano well and and centra taco does have Its own specific so why is there only Sort of semi continental place the New Zeeland you can see it there in the Bottom of the map so unlike the other Coastal areas that more moderate it you Do get these extremes so the climate Here you’ve got this big impacts of some Hotter days and then lovely acidity kind Of cools down at night so you got this

Diurnal range which slows down the Ripening of the grapes preserves the Freshness and but you also get this Warmth in the middle of the day so you Get a bit more alcohol bit more body and Rightness then perhaps Martin bramara Pinot Noirs and but what I actually Wanted to focus on on here because we’ve Obviously talked about climate and was The viticultural practices as well cos a Real focus in New Zealand particularly On the environment there’s lots of Organic and biodynamic wineries the Picture on the left is actually when I Visited and course reef which I done up By a dynamic winery in Central Otago Years ago but this is this is wrong make Mount difficulties one with a base in The same region and they they follow Sustainable practice there’s a big Association called the New Zealand Sustainable like wine growing initiative So it’s the combination of really like Looking after the the vineyard and not Just the vineyard but you know the whole The homes of natural resources if the Country as a whole and and and wine Growing within that because ultimately Thinking you know if you if you damage Your your vineyards your – are you then Gonna be able to make the same style of Wines so it’s about preservation and and They they you know build into that Having a low-energy winery to water

Waste management and to using organic Practices but not everything but try Yeah not using sort of aggressive Herbicides or pesticides or anything Like that and and I’m not saying they Say that you know non-conventional Winemaking can’t make wines that taste – Are they absolutely can but I think There’s a lot to be said pharmacy if you Value it you want to preserve it don’t You and look after it and there’s a There’s a real focus on the environment You know in New Zealand and taking care Of that so they say their aim is to Remain organic while also reducing their Carbon footprint and so all the Viticultural practice sort of go into That and trying to actually trade off Some organic practices but others where They don’t account for the carbon Emissions doing something else that will Limit that so really kind of taking care Of the environment and some last where We’ve got the wines from I gots the Chablis and the pinot noir for majestic White wine i used to work and the chapel Down is actually available in Sainsbury’s way to chose a majestic and The and I did have to buy them thank you Very much someone said joining Tony Didn’t have to play them and the shutter Video is he imports this one come on But yeah I love I love this but really For me taste the peanut right got that

Union central tell you get that Rightness at the kind of black plum and Cherry get a bit more body now cold in Some other Pinot Noirs And that is because if the climate there It’s also very dry that really helps Them be more organic because you haven’t Got so much issues with rot and they get Very cold winters and again that kills Off a lot of pests and diseases which Can means you don’t have to use as much Herbicides and pesticides and things Which is good anyway Patrick do you want To have you got a mouthful of cheddar Yeah so I don’t have a peanut with mine I’m thinking of why the random Italian Merlot works quite well so the cheese I’ve got is it’s basically a cheddar Really it’s made in the cheddar style in The oil Amol which is in the Inner Hebrides on the west coast of Scotland On the island of Mali’s it’s made near Tobermory and if anyone’s watched the CBBC what’s the story Tobermory They’ll know where I’m talking about It’s a beautiful little fishing village With sort of different coloured houses And they have a whiskey distillery there And you can see so the landscape of this Part of Scotland is is very different to Say Somerset where cheddar originates From so you know that the climate is Much harsher you know the cows it’s it’s A tough life for a cow in Mull compared

To lovely sunny Somerset where you’ve Got lush green pastures it’s quite Rugged territory and that means the cows Aren’t out for as long so you know They’re out at pasture you can see it There in that in the far left-hand Corner you can see it’s quite a sort of Tough landscape there’ll be a lot of Rain but also quite cold and windy so The cows only go out from about March to The end of August and then they have to Come back in to the sheds Pollux has you Spent like it’s just unpleasant for them And and you know that they don’t fare Very well in really cold wet climate When they’re in When they’re back in the sheds and Actually during the summer when to sort Fortify their their grass diet they feed Them the spent grains from with whiskey Production so you make your whiskey and Then they actually what’s left over from The whiskey production is then fed to The cow so you can see that’s Chris Reed Feeding the cows with it’s me it’s Called draff and it really comes through In the you know you do get a slightly Sort of fermented see really kind of Flavor in the cheese eylem old cheddar Is a big is a big chair though it’s Gutsy and it’s like bracing I always Think about like walking along the beach In Mull what it would be like it’s a bit Like eating the cheese you know it’s

Sort of it’s up front and and quite Powerful and that’s coming directly from Where it’s made you know I mean the cat That they can’t have your classic black And white Holstein cow is not tough Enough to survive up there so they’ve Interbred Holstein with other breeds From Scandinavia and from Switzerland Which are used to being up in mountains Or in more more sort of difficult Terroir and so they’ve you know they’ve Created their own breed to do well in This part of Scotland and I think it Comes through it’s full of I get an Almost boozy flavour from the cheese and There’s almost as a slightly weird fishy Note I don’t know if you picking that up Lydia but I’ve tasted and I thought well It’s really different to some of the Other Cheddar’s we’ve used on these top Suits yeah it’s really strong I’m being Corrected on CBBC here it’s what’s this Calamari No but I think isn’t it filmed in Tobermory I’m pretty sure it is anyway Singing you can say what you like Mauriz a one-ball Jane Castle says which Is true anyway this will mean nothing to People who haven’t watched TV but it’s a Big it’s a big jeez and I’m interested To see what you think because I think Pinot Noir can be quite it can be quite A delicate great you know but maybe with New worlds being under way you get more

Of those for the smoky meaty notes which Which would work perhaps better with a Big cheddar like this well I haven’t Gotten the wine what do you think that’s Why I went for Central Otago because Although New Zealand is called climate The fact that as I sense of its Continental gives in these extremes you Really get right because you’ve gotten Grapes you’ve got the flavor ripeness And you look phenolic brightness which Is the skins so you get this one more Black of fruity profile than say in Bandung rightness they can be 14% 14% More so you get this right and not forty It gives witness to the one so it is a Picture style of peanut oil and this is Still having some cheddar you would Definitely work I think they’ve even Bigger rates but I do like it has some Real yeah dark fruits and on the nose And this is mat difficulty second wine So which which is made to be a bit kind Of earlier drinking but they do a more Even their mouth difficulty ranges more Premium Pinot Noir more oak so you could Try it try it with that or other Central Otago pin and honors because ya know I Mean not everyone wants their really big Tannic Ritz and enough some of the Questions have said people you know Often want a wine for the whole cheese Boards and pinot noir because it is a Lighter red but does have some depth

Could kind of work I think with a little Bit of the kind of softer cheese’s and There and if I have a sort of go if I’ve Got a cheese board and I want you know And it’s a really wide ranging cheese Board I find a French Pinot Noir work Really well so burgundy is a really good Match for so many ranges of Jesus but Also some of the lawar Reds work quite Well as well Because they had that acidity which Works a bit like a white wine or a rose A with with softer cheese’s but then Like you say has enough fruit to kind of Match up with harder you know you’re Sort of gruyeres and contains and Parmesans and that sort stuff blue Cheese and red wine I think I find that A very difficult match and and well We’re going to come on to a blue cheese And we’re going sweet aren’t we but yeah And also with washed-rind actually some Of the sort of smokier Pinot Noirs work Quite well with washed-rind cheese’s you Know the quite funky farmyard ii smelly Cheese’s I think being in a while generally is a Great is quite flexible when it comes to Wine as long as it’s got that acidity Yeah and this does say because well You’ve got sort of mountings incense Your target but you’ve also got this Diurnal range so it really cools down at Night that stops the grapes ripening so

Really preserves the acidity so that’s What i love yes perhaps compared to some Californian weights you know really it Can be really warm and you still have The freshness but here yeah you retain That freshness but you’ve got the the Ripeness and the body as well let’s move On to the final one then I’m sad it’s Sad we almost there and enjoy myself so Much so tell could tell us about rock For Patrick can you the next one so Here’s so rock for is a place which you Know it’s it’s probably one of the you Know along with brie de Meaux is Probably one of the most famous French Cheeses so it’s a PDA cheese is Protected as is as was ban on actually It’s a ban on is a protected cheese can Only be made in that area so rock for Has a PDO and it means it can only be Made in this part of southern France Which is a Veyron and it must be made of Sheep’s milk and it must be made with Raw sheep’s milk from a particular breed With the luck Breathe which as you can sort of see From the picture in the right-hand Corner you know this is quite a hot part Of France I mean it’s not a million Miles away from where ballons made it’s Quite rocky it’s quite sparse you know Sheep and goats do well in that kind of Landscape cows like lush fields Basically and you don’t get many of them

In this part of southern France and the Reason I picked it is because it’s so Linked to the place of rock for under The terms of its PDO it must all Roquefort cheese whether you bought in Tesco’s or from la fromage URI you know Absolutely world-class rock for it’s all Matured for some period of time in the Caves of rock for and so if you see so Top top right-hand corner basically There was a mountain called the combo Loom outing and at some point many many Hundreds of thousands if not millions of Years ago the top of the mounting kind Of slipped and fell down to create you Can see those cliffs in the right hand Corner so what you have in this the Village of rock four is at the bottom You can see the little village of rock Four at the bottom of the cliffs and at The top is is a great sort of plateau The Cumberland Plateau and within those Limestone that kind of those cliffs are Lots of caves and so if you look at the Diagram that’s they’re all all the rock For cheese will be matured it there’s Only sort of seven families or seven Companies that have caves in this part Of rock four and all their cheese’s will Spend at least a bit of time being Matured in the caves and the reason for That is is well there’s several reasons Um its historical that’s kind of where Jesus were matured because before

Refrigeration the cave is a perfect Place you’ve got a very cool standard Temperature but what’s particularly good About the caves of rock four is you have These kind of thumb you can see from the Top of the mountain you have all these Cracks and crevices which then allow Airflow to go through The cliff side and through the caves Those cracks and crevices are called Fluorines and they create a lovely just Gentle airflow which is what you want in In a cheese cave you don’t want lots of Air flowing for you just want a gentle Airflow which takes away some of the Ammonia that will come off the cheese And just create a nice atmosphere and The other reason why historically Cheese’s were aged in these caves and Still are is there’s a particular mold That grows very well in these caves Which is penicillin rock 40 which is the Blue mold in in in all blue cheeses but Particularly the blue pockets of blue Mold that you find in the cheese are Really encouraged in this cave and you Can see that the young rock 4 in the Bottom right hand corner maturing in the Cave and it for a long time people have Thought that the actual mold grew Naturally in the rock and so if you Leave the cheese in there that the the Spores of the the mold the fungus get Into the cheese and then it starts to

Activate in the middle of the cheese one Of the ways historically they would they Would encourage this mold as they’d put Loaves of rye bread into the cave and Let them go mouldy and would actually Take the you know if you leave bread out Long enough it create it you get blue Mold on it and what they would do is Scrape the blue mold off and actually Sprinkle it into the cheese and as they Were making it and what there’s been Quite a lot of scientific research into It and what they think is that actually The the spores of the mold are not in The rock they’re actually either in the Wheat in the inner sorry in the Rye in The in the actual I’m cereal to make the Bread or it’s actually in the feed for The sheep so they give the the the Animals a particular feed which has this 4 in it so there’s quite a lot of Science into where is this blue mould Coming from is it actually the cave or Is it from what the animals are eating Or is it from the breads that they grew The mold on and I think it’s the the Last two that they’re coming around to But I mean that it’s so rooted rockfall In that place that I mean I just if That’s not so well I don’t know what is Really so I’m going to eat some now well There was a good question that said if It’s old if the society controls Production what country it’s to the

Differences in quality well as I said so The if you look at the bottom that is a Graphic from a producer or an athlean er What they’ll do is they’ll work with say About 20 farms and then make the cheese And then and then mature so society is One of the producers will have its own Dairy and its own cave but there are Actually seven Rock four houses if you Like a society is one of them the cheese We’ve got from la fromage me is the Smallest producer Society is quite big And the one we’ve got is from a producer Called Carly’s or Karl’s which is run by It’s a family-owned cave so there’s Seven in total is another really good One called Papillon I like butterfly and Which is a good one to look out for Society is one of the one of the bigger Ones I think it’s another thing Society Might be owned by Lac Tallis who are one Of the big dairy multinationals so that There’s certain rock for houses to look Out for and papillons a good one and Carl’s or Carl is that we’re tasting now Is another good one they tend to work With a few a number of farms it’s Smaller production and actually the the Cheese that we’re eating Lydia they Still use the the Rye bread method a lot Of the Rockville producers will use Molds that are grown in a lab and just Add them to the milk but Carl is still Put big lumps of rye bread in the cave

And let it go blue and then scrape the Mold off and sprinkle it into the curd When they’re making the cheese which is Super traditional Okay well from from one mode to another And that’s it so she funny he said Butterfly because the producer of this Wine has do blue and you can see it’s Actually a dragonfly it’s the image on The label there and but yeah at one of The key things that I hear for sweet Wines is obviously the mode for botrytis Noble rods and but actually what I what I chose to have here is it’s not a Really really sweet wine so this is Actually a Bordeaux do and which is a Kind of semi sweet wine at she has under 45 grams per liter so it’s not as Forlorn as Saturn or barsac with some of Those sort of more famous sweet wine Appalachians but I think in the summer And you know it’s really good it’s a Little bit lighter so what they actually Do for this one is they pick a bit mix Of the grapes and you can see there in That picture that I took you in as a new Pack the botrytis the the mod doesn’t Affect the great uniformly doesn’t Affect the bunch uniformly so some of The grapes I just thought about right And you start to see the little specks And then whether the mold is attacking Some are started to shrivel some are Really raised and and botrytis defective

So what they actually do for this if You’ve got so numerous semi all blends And they pick some of the grapes that Have ripe some of that kind of overripe Raisins and some that arbitrate eyes so You get a benefit of everything you Still got some sort of freshness from The the normal fruit from the botrytis Grapes you’re gonna get increase in Sugar homers the dry ice can Marmol a Late effect and you’ll get some residual Sugar because obviously there’s a Increased concentration from the Reasoned and botrytis grapes but it Doesn’t and some of it will ferment out But you’ve still got a degree of Sweetness but it’s not as kind of Intense or overpowering I think in the Summer or not everyone always wants a Really really sweet wine and this works Really well I think cheese but also with Strawberries if you’re just having like A summer pudding or you know even some Fish like think about lobster something With a bit of sweetness it’s got a Lovely sort of lemon peel orange notes Rip but it’s not overly Clawing because there’s just a sort of Hint of sweetness with a little bit Kinda like honey waxy notes from the Botrytis and yeah really nicely cold you Were saying you like your rock phone Call and just to bring out that Freshness it’s not yeah it’s just

Something I thought it’s not not as Heavy as some of those other sweet ones But I’m yeah I think the epitome it’s Why you have to have the conditions Particular conditions for this rot to Acquire so and it’s all about the Humidity so a lot of these famous sweet Wine regions aware you’ve got a lake or Different kind of streams and Tributaries that have different Temperatures that form some mist and fog Than that that causes the onset of the Rock and then you need a nice sunny Afternoon like you can see in the Picture just speed up the evaporation This is just the Bordeaux rapper Appellation so it’s put a doober this Vineyard and Chateau video is actually Situated in the entre demesne So just to kind of go across I’ll sort Of in about in the middle of the Untied Romero region across from bar ii so town And there’s other sweet wines made Around there and they get these Conditions so yeah really you know you Don’t get these sort wines made Everywhere so definitely you know Something to do the climatic conditions You get for this for this lots of Permeate and then and then the impact it Has on the wine it send me on a Sauvignon Blanc so Lydia right someone Was asking about other other wines to go With work for and mentioned boom boom de

Venise and that’s actually where I’m Drinking tonight It’s just I mean that cheese I mean it’s It’s got like chocolate notes you’re Getting that sort of like almost like Milk chocolate white chocolate notes Because often I mean rock for me by its Nature very salty that you know the lost A high school percentage and could be Really spicy when this I can definitely Taste the sort of the animal in this a Bit you can taste the sheep there’s a Kind of she penis to it which is almost Like sort of lamb equality to it but Then a sort of sweetness Sall about it’s working really well with This wine which had this one has loads Of from some marmalade notes and honey Honey marmalade all of that stuff and That sweet and salt thing together is Just you know blue cheese and sweet Stuff works really well so a piece of Chocolate with with blue cheese is Really nice even a stout I’m gonna Mention beer now but water a milk stout Is really good because they add lactose To the to the stout to make it even Sweeter and that just sort of wraps Around the saltiness but that are Delicious and actually the bone is a Bunch of aneesa’s would be a bit a bit Of a lighter sweet wine with it no I Would say strongly so bone Denis is Fortified so they add alcohol so it is

At least often about 1617 year they can Be a bit more and and sweeter so yeah if It was a SonoSite em and maybe be Sweeter but i’ve got a kind of semi Sweet bordeaux ways which you’ve got That which will have at least 600 grams And then you’ve got that high alcohol But i mean i think both were when you’ve Got like you say a blue to you something You really need a wine with some flavor Intensity so even if you don’t like Sweet wine you need something that’s Really concentrated and obviously the Production methods here just lend itself To that and then in Muscat you’ve got a Really aromatic grape and then i are Calling got something really yeah honey Dan grape Ian and strongly flavored too Much it’s means so turns and rock for Was the classic match but it’s um I Actually they’re quite far apart in France as as regions because I mean I Wonder what they had you know in the South of France where they make rock for I think may tend to drink red wine with It but I find red wine a lot for a Really that’s the classic Tanning’s Clashing with creamy cheese thing going On I’ve struggled to match red wines With with rock for Sweet just sweet stuff works really Really well definitely and that’s why I Like this one because it’s sweet but It’s not you know really really sweet so

You’ve got enough sugar to pan the salt In the street and the fruit and the Tankiness of the blue but it’s not yeah It’s not not too intense but yeah I mean We’ve always said this what we’re doing Is just experimenting and everyone has Different tastes where we said you know Experiment try what you like you could Try the street with the different ones You could try the rose’ with the whole Board it’s really just up to you you Might really like red wines and blue Cheese oh yeah everything is personal And not half the fun of cheese and wine Is is just trying stuff and if you like It that’s brilliant Certainly not trying to dictate to People it’s you know well it whatever Works for you is brilliantly if you want To drink you know Largo with Roquefort And go for it Wine yeah I mean I think we just just Scrape the surface and so what I haven’t We but even district those choices there Was that you could see the parallelism In climber the specifics of the climber And the province goats and the English Phrase oh you had there minerality of a Soil impact and the chamois and the Cheshire which I definitely was pairing Of the night by the way yeah I know that Yeah I think sadly and an Applebees Gesture is I’m actually when this Finishes I’m going to go and explore

That match great kitchens I particularly Liked your expression about the Hardiness of the cows up in Scotland and I kind of see that down in Central Otago Is quite rugged you’ve got these Extremes like cold winter warm summer You need rugged grapes and then they’re Kind of classic but though your Parallels with the mode and age potatoes Grapes and yeah as I say we just scratch The surface so much you took what I Liked about this idea of two RVs that Actually you know a lot of these Products have been made in a particular Region for Hundreds of years and over that time you Know producers have tailored you know What whether it’s the grapes or the cows Or the style of cheese where they use Rennet or they let the milk acidify Naturally they’ve done it because They’re being influenced by where they Live by the weather by the soil by the You know I mean that is the definition Of terror isn’t it it’s kind of it’s the Place where it’s made and it works in That place I suppose that’s why I think A sense of place like does that wine Tell you something about where it’s Coming from it ultimately some more than Others you know some some wines can only Be a specific wine and others could be You know there’s other areas that can Produce similar styles but oh yeah

Delicious everything so thank you as Always we’ve overrun apologies but me Impact you just love wine and cheese so Much thank thank you all for joining Thank you a shout out to LA from a jury As patrick said for for supplying us With the cheeses they they ruled Delicious so I just have a quick plug Yeah absolutely know that your details Are up there so and yeah go for it I was Just gonna say so I am now teaching the Academy of cheese level one course Online I have my first course next month In July it’s it’s three sessions they’re Three two-hour sessions on a Monday Night basically and I’ve got that sold Out really quickly which was great so we Keep it small just eight nine people and We do it over zoom a bit like this Really but for a couple of hours on each Session and at the end of it you’re Ready to take your liver one exam but I’ve got other courses in August and September and October now so if you if You go on my website or the academy of Cheese website and have a look we can go And actually I’m going to do quite a lot On drinks pairing with cheese because And not just wine Lily I’m sorry saver I’m going to do beer I’m going to look At side certainly fortified sack’ Something I’ve done quite a lot with With cheese and sack’ pairings which Work really well so yeah that’s

Something there’s gonna be quite key to The to what I teach online so check me Out Brilliant yeah Thank You Patrick and Yeah make sure and Instagram it’s Patrick McGuigan one otherwise you’re Harassing rather different next week Meghan yeah and yeah equally all last School um if you’re interested in wine Spirits knacait courses and check out The website we think obviously we do Closing courses but we do everything Online and at the moment are level ones And twos you can complete online now With a remote in vigil a Shinigami you Don’t even have to leave the comfort of Your home so thank you again for joining Aryan thank you as ever Patrick for your Cheese going time thank you thank you Everybody for joining us