Okay lovely welcome everyone to the next In our series of webinars my name is Julie Lambeth I’m an educator at WCT School London but it is very much not me You’re here to see this evening and we Have been doing a series of webinars During lockdown separate to the online Qualifications that we’re doing and We’re very lucky tonight to be doing a Session on Irish whiskey with Charlie McCarthy so that’s all I’m gonna say I’m Gonna polish over to him and he’s gonna Take us three Thank you very much Julia as Julie Mentioned my name is Charlie McCarthy I Am lucky enough to work full-time for WCT in London where I helped with Rolling out the spirits education Program across you Lisa yeah at the Moment I am currently in West Cork in Ireland in my hometown is Capri but as We are all social distancing and working From home currently it seemed being in W West Cork was quite an attractive option For a month or two okay so what we’re Talking about today is the six ages of Irish whiskey and I’ve broken them down Very roughly into the first stage which Is ishka Baja the father or possibly the Mother of whiskey then we have the Division of poaching versus Parliament Whisky followed by the Golden Age of pot Still Irish whisky and then the Encroaching threat from silent spirit
And other catastrophes which in turn Gave birth to the classic 20th century Irish blends that we all know so well And now we’re in a very much a booming Renaissance period for Irish whiskey Wood are a whole host of districts Opening and new stars developing and We’re gonna address that at the end in What we’re gonna call the new wave of 21st century iconoclast um A glitch number one it does work ok Wonderful Ok so Period which is a Gaelic Irish for hello Uh focus for today’s webinar is Obviously an Irish whiskey I’m going to Try to bring it back to the flavor Profile and as much as possible so we Will be talking about history quite a Lot today but I don’t want it to feel Despite the glut of Dave’s and mentions Of various excise laws and distillation Laws going to try to make it relevant to Type of liquid that existed at the time And the equivalent in the modern day Which will be for the most part Available on the market before I go any Further I would like to not acknowledge A lot of people who books but I read in The lead-up to this already receiving Number of years principal among them Would be Irish whiskey but Peter Moeller Ryan also a glass apart the history of Pot still Irish whiskey but you know no
Connor and Matt Healey who runs a great Series of podcast nice whiskey called Pot still calm there plenty of others There is well we get onto those later But for the for the most part those are My origins and sources of most of my Information and hopefully I’m not doing The service by getting entity to was Liebe wrong today So distillation you get your grain you Mash your grain up you put it in some Water and yeast gets introduced the Yeast ferments out creates alcoholic Fermentation which you will end up with Something akin to 10% beer you put that Into your still be better pot still or a Column still by the leaf you are going To collect and concentrate certain Elements these choices will be Determined by your local laws and then You’re gonna put that spirit if you want To make whisky and put that in two Barrels or casks these will almost Always be oak but as we’re going to see You later there are some exceptions and In Ireland they they will have to rest In oak casks for three years before they Can be called whiskey and then they are Finished and powerful so that’s Essentially the process of all how risky Is made of He is I’m sure we’re already there most Of us but for purposes of today’s talk It’s going to be interesting for us to
See the changes that happen through the Various different points in history now We also have here what we look what we Call the WSU tea that will choose Systematic approach to tasting spirits And every W SAT course will have a Systematic approach to tasting attached To it and when we judge a spirit or in The WCT method we’re looking at the Appearance in those palate and as part Of the pilot also the finish and Importantly as part of the public the Texture a lot of people neglect and then We can draw conclusions as to the Quality then we have on the right-hand Side of that page we have some Descriptors of the aromas of flavors and Some aromas and notes that might be Associated with the process such as Smoke esters which are the fruit notes Of Apple bananas impairs what you Usually created during the fermentation Process and are signs of oak maturation Typically that’s gonna be the never Toast and some red fruit sitting you Know or X sherry casks not going to Spend too long in this because we’ve got A lot to get through so star wars Beginning a long time ago in a country Far far away where did whisky begin but We know that spirits and distillation Did not begin in either Ireland or Scotland in fact distillation can be Traced back to the Arab Renaissance
There are records in ancient Greece from About a hundred years AD of salt water Being distilled into fresh water but Continuing on the star wars-themed some Of you are going to recognize this rock On the left-hand side You looked at the recent Star Wars Movies this is where Luke Skywalker was Living like a hermit and that is quite Appropriate because it was actually a Retreat for Irish hermetic monks from Around the 6th century to the 13th Century and it’s called skellig michael And this is essentially as far west as You can go In Europe now why this is pertinent to The story of whiskey is that most Irish Monks and many of them if they had the Opportunity would go on a pilgrimage Either to Rome or to the Middle East Where you had the Holy Lands and many of Them over this time period about a Thousand years ago roughly although we Can’t be sure exactly would have brought Back the crafts and art of distillation From the from Greece from the Moorish Travelers that they would have met along The way and from the traditions that Already existed in the least now we know That within the monastic tradition you Still have spirits and liqueurs today That date from this time a really good Example of this would be chartreuse Which is equated by the Cartesian monks
French Pollock’s but in Ireland when They brought this knowledge of how to Take what was potentially wine and each Was internists by selection into a Stronger spirit which is called in Latin Aqua vitae they discovered that it Didn’t really have great access to fruit In Ireland at the time so what a lot of The monks started doing as they started Fermenting grains into beer rotten Fruits into wine and converting that Into a spirit and the spirit Waterman Called Calaca vitae which is the Latin For water of life then in local Gaelic Which was the Irish language which was Then and still is spoken on the island Here called ishka Baja Ishka Baja a koozie they both mean water Of life and so from around the 12th Century through 13th and 14th century we Have various written records of References to ishka Baja or escoba in Ireland when henry ii launched season The invasion of the area around Dublin And Leinster be there are records of the Soldiers being given Escobar to to Prepare them for battle similarly ad There is a purported record from Sir Robert savage of Bushmills said to have Given these man a mighty dry Shish kebob before battle uh now you Will have noticed my first mention up Here of etymology coroner and homology Coroner is his a lot of word origins
Associate whiskey so this phrase here The pale I’m sure some of you will have Heard of the expression that’s beyond The pale and that would mean that some That’s not on that’s uh uncivilized Behavior the pale was actually a Physical location and most of the Anglo-norman invasions in ireland and Their subsequent conclaves were centered Around what’s now dublin and there was a Walled area around dublin and inside That wall was known as the pale and that Was seen by the anglo-norman as a Civilized part of ireland and beyond the Pale was the uncivilized part of Ireland And this will be partnered later because There’s a big division in the history of Irish whiskey between what happened in Dublin and what happened in the rest of The country so a notable early record is 1324 the red book of Australian by the Bishop of Kilkenny Ritter led read and In that he describes in some detail the Process of distillation now we think That he might have actually been Describing an odor via food odors a Rotted in the whisky but it’s certain That at this stage Escobar was well Established within Ireland who both Within the monasteries and also the Knowledge had seeped out into common Folk and uncommon use so by the time King Henry VIII ate involved the Monasteries in the 1530s
Ireland had all intensive purposes Really become part of of the English Crown in English realm at this stage for Various conquests and at this stage Ishka Baja was the common drink of the People anybody who had any excess crop Broader than if they keeps him seed for The following year and if they had any Left over there from harvest they would Ferment it and being with them Distillers there wasn’t any great Tradition of beer drinking in Ireland at This time people mostly drank milk and Ishka Baja And so we come to 1556 Parliament’s First attempts like the regulation of Whiskey essentially they try to grant Monopolies of whiskey could only be made By the lords and the ladies of the Gentry and this is where we begin to see The first the origins of the dichotomy Between ishka Baja and whiskey Ishka Baja would have been very much Like something I have in this bottle Here can tell it’s a bit dusty this Bottle I can’t really say where I got it From but this is legally distilled pachi Touching was illegal to distill in Ireland from around the 1600s right up To about 20 years ago but most Households had access to Pacino was Common ingredient used in the making of Christmas cakes and so touching is Gaelic for little pot and if we look at
The pot still the modern pot stone the Principle is exactly the same take your Fermented liquid I miss Kaysen here put It in to your still you apply ghee and Through the application of heat vapors Arise the most volatile laborers work First And through this process it cuts over Time when it comes off the line armed in A liquid form having been condensed the First part is the heads second part of The hearts is the hearts on the last Part is Bill and you can select that and Usually when we’re talking about pot Distillation at this stage we’re talking About a double distillation process ie Fill the pot wheat beer run it through Got your first is still it off that then Reintroduce that this to the pot when it Through again and got a stronger Distillate of that it’s important to Know that each cup I had this be very Much a domestic the cottage industry Step it was almost always on aged it was Generally drunk flavored with fennel a Nice Tarragon sometimes raisins often mints Often time and it was oftentimes Consumed by the locals with milk a lot Of the time I think sim define tree’ With bullets mode I’m going to pour a Bit of this into the bottle this is not Power as whiskey let me just be very Careful
This is touching what would later become Known as moonshine no most touching Hello oh sorry I thought I heard Somebody jumping in there most patina in Ireland would have a regional variants Every region would have their own style Some regions evolve a stone that would Be slightly horrible some regions would Have a double distil in some regions Would have a triple this unit some Regions would have used peat which was The common local fuel of time to dry and Mold somewhere barley so there would Have been some peated but gene around The owners as many varieties as punching As there were towns in Ireland I’m not Going to go too deeply into this but Using the systematic approach to take Some spirits we can tell it’s here water Wife in terms of intensity it’s clean I Would say it’s a medium intensity on the Nose I’m getting a little bit of malt Some caramel and some toffee no Processing of all – no maturation Involved in this – would have come off The still after a second at our Distillation to me bottle now I fully Expect this you’d be very very very Cokie doesn’t say an abd on the bottle But poaching would additionally be up Around 60 and sometimes higher so it’s But a little bit of water in it straight Away before even trying to taste it you Are very grassy a lot of kind of straw
And hay and a small apple no actually Which is going to be and note that we’re Going to come back to a lot in Irish Whisky Yeah it’s got quite some farm er D Character there’s a lot of kind of hay And kind of slightly multi-character Nasan fairness is not a million miles Away from a lot of new make spirits that Will be produced in in whisky Distilleries in modern times I cannot Speak whatsoever to distillation process I was involved in this I was I only Stood up in the hills somewhere in the Middle of the night in a very primitive Cell but that essentially is what we Have been considered Irish escoba are Ishka Baja or both quite a long time for A couple of centuries Dr. Johnson wrote his first dictionary He explored Irish ishka Baja it might Look slightly different from this liquid As we don’t do later it’s also very Popular in the core to be great on the Court of Elizabeth first um so how do we Go from this something resembling this Well a lot of the history of Irish Whiskey Comes down to the crown and the Government of England United Kingdom was As a would later become trying to impose Regulations in order to extract unity And profit from the production of Spirits so James the first grant to the
First patent to distill I think was in 1603 and the third patent granted mr. Thomas Phillips who was distilling in Bushmills which is income from an Ordinary land that was in April 1608 now Bushmills to the state unfortunately Don’t have a bottle of Bushmills with me Bushmills blackest for my money one of The best value for money whiskey’s Available anywhere in the world but they Still have that date 1608 it’s not a Continuous location of distillation but They it is the patent that was granted Um but the monopoly system that came From the system of pay was right it was Like a cronies on the right of Corruption Ireland at this stage wasn’t Really subjugated to British crown and It was still quite a hostile territory It was very expensive for this victory Force to support the army two battalions Of a garrisoned garland of Ireland and They tried to raise more taxes against Whiskey the abolishment of monopolies But by 1661 very first excise duty was Enshrined into law anywhere in the world And it deepens had the effect of keeping That caught me between 13 and Parliament whiskey and I think The previous leg getting into vote that The clock meat was Parliament’s whiskey Is well the word whiskey is a derivation Of the word ishka bajo or discussed were Leash kebab and you can see how the US
Would have been corrupted into the English word whiskey um in 1661 this tax In ireland was very much not observed by Anybody outside of the pale largely at This stage Ireland was largely occupied Certainly more in the eastern province Of Leinster local distilling was still Very much the norm and even up to 1779 There were 1228 registered legal Distillery in Ireland and there was Almost certainly an order of magnitude More distilleries than that that were Operating just in a cottage basis Distilling much like brewing uh was Largely woman’s work it was bhaji the Lady of the house would be in charge of Running the pot and the word poaching Derives from the Irish word or thought Which is part and in which is it which Means small some poaching meat small Cloth and you would still your home Distilled spirit in your little perch in Your little small pot and it various Regulations came in largely taxing the Size of the stills I saw that by the end Of the 18th century only 246 registered Distilleries no no no no we’re jumping Way forward here we’re gonna see why in A second what this meant is that only Large distilleries could survive because Of way that the excise and the various Taxes were imposed you had to have a Very large still are one of the largest Stills the one’s ever seen is over
130,000 gallons and we would see that Later that was still in Middleton Distillery which came a little bit they Didn’t miss but distillers in the large Distilleries had to charge their stills Continuously in order to meet their tax Bills they run their still is very hot So the spirit that came out was actually Quite Ruff and when you run you’re still very Hot especially in a pot still the beer Is gonna froth up and bubble that’s Gonna chill with the worms in the worm Tub so you’re gonna have to start Everything again and a way of stopping Bubbles is ironically by introducing a Bit soul so what they used to do is they Would introduce soap into the pot to Kill this froth so you had very poor Quality spirit that was being made in Some of the larger distilleries and you Know had 300 gallons still would go Through a ton of so of course every year To keep this frottage done so parliament Whiskey in its early days wasn’t very Very well regarded by Irish people and It would have mostly have been for People with India within the kind of the Eastern seaboard of Ireland and uh Interestingly this is where we have the Etymology of the word Goucher so if You’ve ever been gouged in a deal or you Feel that somebody’s a bit of a con man You might call him a Gorger and this
Word derived from the people who worked For the excise office in Ireland at the Time would have to go around and gauge The size of the stills ie measure the Tapes The sizing the volumes of the capacities Of the sniffles and they weren’t very Well respected so I we weren’t gauger Got corrupted to gougers Gaucher’s were Notorious for taking bribes and for over Exaggeration mm still so they weren’t Very well regarded by the sitter’s hence The word Gaucher’s doge to uh extract Money by dishonest means so going back To a previous slide we have here what Happens during maturation in any spirit When it goes into an old cask in this Case whiskey ah you have a char layer on The inside of the barrel layer if Charlie will remove some of the harsher Congener the harsher elements then over Here you also have concentration liquid Gets concentrated because old barrels Are not airtight there is some of Operation and that goes up in profit That’s what we call the angel’s share And what goes in the spirit is equally As important color and flavors and known As congeners get extracted from the oak Into the spirit and a lot of the notes That we chose excuse me like vanilla and That’s coconut notes and some of the Spice notes that’s where they come from The cask and also oxygen it’s added in
And as the spirit gets a lot older this Oxygen reacts in a process called Oxidization with the spirit and that can Create some very interesting notes where The fruit notes we turn into more these Kind of mature like prune date and Raisin notes and that’s called oxidants Oxidization which results in a favorite Character enormous brand seoeon that you Know it’s very old neighbors but before We go too much further Oh gene we have Parliament whisky but Out of parliament whiskey which was not Well-regarded grew Hank thanks to the 1682 malt tanks what we now know as Irish pot still whiskey I’m going to Pour a little bit of this this is red Breast twelve you distilled in middle Killing would not have been originally Distill the Middleton would have Originally been distilled in Dublin well What is pot still whiskey so I think Will or we’re all going to be more or Less familiar with the concept of malt With malt whiskies where you take one Hundred-percent malted barley and you Master if you create your beer and it Goes through copper pot still a number Of times that distillate then goes into Your oak cask for three years and out of There I’ve got malt whiskey if that Comes from a single distillery single Malt whiskey similarly pot still whiskey And this is the weekly Irish soil it can
Be made anywhere else and one but it Can’t really be called cotton whiskey Anywhere else in the world for reasons I Look later Um pasta whiskey is exactly the same as Malt whiskey with one key difference It’s not 100% malted barley in the mash Bill its malted barley lost other grains Now principle amongst those other grains Would have been on malted barley You could have had oats at the time you Could have a try you could have that Week but it would have been a Combination mainly of malted plus Unmalted barley with other grains now What that does instead of the very wrong Rich buttery and very young cereal Driven character that you can expect From malt whiskey from pot still whiskey You get something slightly different I’m Gonna give this a little nose so it’s Quite a lot of character impossible Whiskey little bit tighter on the nose And you might expect from malt whiskey And I always get a slightly um bramble Bush type of blackberry of black currant Nose on it as well and gonna have a Little bit of water now this is a single Positive whiskey that would have been Matured in oak casks including sherry Old castle you can expect some of that Shelley or ask influence do you read Fruit and that really really sticks out In the nose when you’re a little bit of
Water you Apple is a note that is Consistent through almost every Irish Whiskey on the market at moment and this Is very much bright red called a ripe Red apple now contemplations that’s a Green apple but think of a very ripe red Apple skin as if it knows you’re getting Open and there are some spiced nuts Coming through as well give it a quick Taste and this is where pots still Really separates from malt whiskey cuz Pot still has got a very creamy oily Texture but again held a little bit just There here with me okay so what pot Still you’re also gonna get a slightly Spicy cake on the finish which is the Influence of the unmalted A lot of people who drink rye whiskey in America identify with spiciness on the End But the real driving characteristic of Klotz to the whiskeys is a fruit So pot still whiskey I just probably There’s a little type of typo there So if necessity is the mother of Adventure in the economy is its father And a lot of times when you look at the History of various different spirits in The world and how they’ve evolved they Will evolve out of what is the cheapest Way to make the product that we want to Sell and that’s not the most romantic Don’t worry in the world and that’s why You’re not going to see it on a lot of
Brand literature but the more tax of 1682 basically imposed a tax according To how much malted barley you used in The production of your whiskey and so a Fantastic workaround for that was to use A combination of molten and on malted Barley in your whiskey hence birth of Hot still Irish whiskey is combination So this would have been the type of Whiskey that became very prevalent in The larger distillers remember at this Time fourteen is still being juiced the More rural parts of Ireland West the West and Northwest and Aimee cork Carry-on connemara and go away and up And Donegal in the initial pudding it’s Very particular each would have had Their own local studs but Dublin pot Still whiskey in particular became very Very very popular throughout British Empire and dr. Samuel Johnson’s famous Victory at 7:55 he described it was Particularly distinguished for its Pleasant and mild flavor the Highland Sort is somewhat hotter and by Corruption as gosh they call it whiskey So at this stage we have wood whiskey Very well established in the English Language and he talks about the Highland Sort he’s almost certainly talking about Malt whiskey which would have for the Most part being double distilled Scotland and there would have been the Use of some piece hence giving it that’s
Slightly smoky phenolic characters that We identified typically with either Whiskey these days but Scotch whisky because it had been Distilled twice in a pot still rather Than three times in a pot still had a Heavier body would have had a few more Of the congeners can be true for a Relation process hours Irish whisky Which at this stage was beginning to Lean towards being triple distilled Which is all down to a Scotsman we’re Going to get onto very soon but a Critical phase in the history of wine And spirits in Europe and the world was I the flux with lightness not true for Those who knows a small lows of parasite And this parasite basically I was Brought to France in the eighteen Forties I believe in by the 1860s had Invested almost all of the vineyards in France destroying the wine crop at the Time brandy was the spirit that was Drunk throughout the British Empire but Now brandy was no longer available so They were looking for an immediate Replacement for brandy and the thing That was available and most palatable to The English planet at the time Not scotch whiskey but Irish whiskey Remember at this time Ireland very much Part of the of the British Empire in the Union so anybody who’s a whisky Historian will know the work of Alfred
Bernhard the whiskey distillers of the United Kingdom and in 1887 he described In great detail all the various Histories around the country but he paid Quite a lot of attention to the six Distilleries that were operational in Dublin at the time is he one of them on The right this is John Jameson and Sons Distillery on bul-bul Street in Dublin And the distilleries in Dublin by the Late the latter part of our the eighteen Hundred’s or enormous enterprises Dublin Was by far center of distillation and World stage the success of this pot Still a style of whiskey that had taken Root in the hearts and minds of people’s Grow throughout the British Empire Really Blossomed and mushrooms over the course Of eighteen hundreds and a lot of that Was down to this gentleman here a lot of You will recognize the face that is John Jameson John Jameson believe or not was A Scotsman into Ireland to start his own Distillery He brought triple distillation the idea Of triple distillation on industrial Scale to Ireland’s largely responsible But a lighter style that we still Associate Today bottle Jameson here one of their a Small buy for older no redbreast and Jameson have one thing in common and That is pots to Jameson whiskey today a
Blend of pot still whiskey and grain Whiskey I’m gonna come to grain whisk in A little oil we are galloping through a History of whiskey but John Jameson’s a Scotsman he came to Ireland he was with A marriage The Hague Amazing family and a couple of other Spots in Scotland I’m gonna have to ask Dave Broome I’m gonna be talking on Saturday to be there below down on that And we have this for for big Distilleries of Dublin Well John Jameson a post-race John power Of John’s Lane and it’s still referred To as a power isn’t Thrones Lane George Roman called chemistry now wrong cool Was an enormous just probably the Largest of all of them but it fell into Decline a great decline of Irish whiskey That happened over the course of the Next hundred years Yeah actually close but it has had a Rebirth reason and a william jameson of Marlin Margo Lane and I not a Scottish Marriage into a Scottish but basically There was a large Scottish influence in In the destination here to the extent But a lot of whiskey that was so over The course of the 1900s at the eighteen Hundreds and the well certainly delayed Maybe eighteen hundreds was hybrid Skee would have been a marriage of Scottish and Irish whiskeys and that’s Tireless Lego and it’s not really
Legally technically possible anymore to Blend Irish and scotch and still call it Whiskey a reason of geographical Education and technically pilots will Touch on the very briefly okay so about Halfway through here and we’ll at the High point of the history of Irish Whiskey Irish whiskey is outselling Every every other spirit in the world by Orders of magnitude This new triple distillation stone bind With this would be hot still stone of Irish whiskey crates a very clean smooth Refined approachable style of wood ski Um so there were 88 licensed Distilleries at the height of this hot Still boom reducing more than twelve Million million liter cases annually and If Irish whisky was by far the largest Is packed with I’m gonna enjoy a little Bit more of this breakfast People discover and move on because Nothing good can last forever and around The time that Irish whiskey was enjoying Its boom period in the eighteen hundreds Especially lately in 1800 A few threats were happening and had a Large effect on not just whiskey but Also per gene so for advice Matsu I Started the temperance movement in fact About two hundred yards from here is Ring there’s a plaque commemorating the First temperance Hall Joe bleep dates 1836 and the temperance movement in
Ireland was largely supported by the Catholic Church which was greatest Social influence Norland and it was a Move to basically swear off alcohol Consumption it was later I took on a Different lease of life in America where It became one of the driving forces Behind what was to become prohibition Movement in rural Ireland the Great Famine had a devastating effect and that Lasted for four years at its peak when It had essentially the potato crop Suffered of light much like the wine Crop suffered by Locke’s roguelike Previous refunds However the difference between the wine Crop in France and the pinna crop in Ireland was potato was the staple diet Of the Irish people for a lot of People’s only food they could eat so the Typical protein making and producing Areas of Ireland were absolutely Devastated billions died millions more Emigrated then we’ve got a fast-forward A little bit until World War when Ireland was still part of the empire my Grandfather or four-ish army and it Would have been very normal things to Time and then in in the 20s in Ireland There was a lot of civil unrest through The late 1800 of the early 20th century And by from 1916 up to 1920 there’s a lot of unrest At guerilla warfare
Do you want to like like a Collins it Gives you a good insight on what was Happening in the country at the time There was a war of independence which Was largely one although partition the Country into the public and the six Counties of service remain part of the Follow that will immediately horomia’s Civil War it shown basically rent the Country – and the civil wars for today Largely on the basis of people who Accepted that they could be and should Be partition him and then followed on Directly from that was prohibition in America and the Irish roots of exports And their routes to market to America Were largely cut off up to this point in America Irish whiskey would seem as the Leading style of whiskey and it would Have been hot stew it might have been a Little bit of Bunyan – we’re going to Talk about that in a little second But LOX whiskey’s very interesting Knox Whiskey was the leading whiskey in the World at the time it was a it would have Outsold what Jim Beam is selling these Days it was a military units and in fact Irish whiskey by the time prohibition Came around Irish whiskey was very much making Whiskey in America but American was Spelled with an e because they were Imitating Irish whiskey this product Nourish whiskey by the stage was spelt
With it With the e and over the course of Prohibition much of bootleg alcohol was Smuggled in from Canada was Scotch and Much of fake alcohol that was made in Nasty stills and colored ah what’s Labeled as Irish because these Counterfeiters could get more money for A bottle that was available as Irish Whiskey than they’d gotten from bottle That was laid in most American with Scotch whiskey over the course of it More or less ten years of prohibition Irish whiskey went from the thing that Everybody wanted the thing that would Kill you I saw real nail in the coffin Of Irish whiskey at this stage and I’m just To finish everything off the Irish Government in nineteen thirties decided To have a trade war with Britain their Largest export and import partner had The slogan at the time was I believe Burn everything British except their cold though there Was a lot of rancor there at the time From from within the Irish government But what that then did in terms of the Irish whiskey trade is meant that you Couldn’t really export Irish whiskey to Anywhere in the Empire so they’d lost a Route to market America it lost the Route to market everyone the British Empire so essentially these calamities
Sparked the start of the collapse of Irish whiskey but principle among them And I think he gets a bad rap for this Was an Irish excise man turned Ventura Turned distiller by the name of Aeneas Coffee now Aeneas coffee started he was A very bright intelligent Polyglot he was a man of many different Skills he began his life as an excise Junior clerk in 1813 by 1816 he was Promoted to inspector general of exile Is in Dublin and that is the mark of an Exceptional man is shot up through the Ranks over the course of the 20s He led a lot of campaigns to basically Destroy the Pacino industry in Ireland Because that was part of his job as an Excise officer but Shane was illegal on Aged whiskey but you excise and Jews he Was not collected on it because people Are just doing it in the backyards or in The hills and that’s where the word Moonshine come from another etymology Corner moment their moonshine Moonshiners would Is still there poaching in the hills at Night away from the prying eyes of the Local constabulary excise would gather a Ragtag bunch of mercenaries and launch Raids on areas and famously in Shawn Peninsula and any gold and his coffee Was part of one of the raids and he had Heath go locate by one of the ring Combatants from the other side the side
Of the platoon makers and these were Running battle were no small thing and It would happen over the course of the Days over the Irish countryside um but He recovered from that thankfully and he Submitted many reports and it was a Large part of the classification of Irish whiskey until he in the background One who’s doing all of those things Working on perfecting what we now know As the process of continuous Distillation and continuous distillation Is not like hot stove nation I’m going To ask you to cast your minds back to The slide at the start we have a long Twirl continuous to achieve the run Continuously hence the name it had been Developed in turns by various French Engineers and by notably by Scottish Engineer madman Robert Stein who was the Connection with the William Jameson Distillery just came back to me but it Was a it’s a great generally that it was Perfected by this gentleman and his Coffee and he patented ease version of The continuous column still in 1830 and Without that we would not have grain Whiskey would not have what we now know As vodka and from the derivative from The grain spirit that is still there we Wouldn’t have June we wouldn’t have very Many different stars as waves such as Armagnac bourbon also means short column Stills even some of the claret
MacLaren’s or what’s the Roman thinking Of Agricole ROM used columns – well the Coins Beijing With cutting dissipation by continuous Distillation in a column still you can Make a far more high ABV spirit and the Higher the ABV the lower the level of Congeners or character or flavor profile That you can bet their final spirits Gonna throw something up in 95 percent ABV only really did that in a column Still thanks to the progress that was Made in that design by idiots coffee you Are going to have some that isn’t 95 Percent of that bottle is spirit pure Ethanol and the other 5% will be some Water and some flavor congeners so that Would carry the flavor but you’re Looking really at a neutral spirit there Um so this created a bit of a a decision And a quandary for the people working in The Irish whisky industry specifically In the Dublin before big Dublin Distillers that we saw earlier they were Sitting pretty they were riding high They had this fantastically premium Product all pot still whiskey that they Knew how to make and nobody else really Was making anything quite that good Anywhere else in the world and they saw This new quite pure like refines this Was made in column stills so that has a Threat because some distillers in Ireland but many many more destroyers in
Scotland started blending this new grain Spirit with I don’t malt whiskey or pot Still whiskey creating a lighter style And this is essentially the invention of Blended whiskey what I have in my glass Is a blended whiskey it is Powers gold label powers and Paddy’s Would have been more popular whiskey Ireland seventy’s and eighty’s weren’t Really widely available outside of Ireland until recently and that’s a Shame because the very fine whiskey’s I Know there’s a lot of difference Expressions of powers this one is gold Label there’s also powers Jones Lane Which is 100 hot still this is a Fantastic blend of hot still and grain So you get the rich fruit notes of the Pod stove you get a little bit of that Kind of marzipan character that you can Sometimes get in gray whiskies I’m gonna Add a little bit of order to see the Grain comes out a lot more when you add Water to this one This is very drinkable the spice and the Dryness are you associate with pasta Whisk is definitely there at the end it A lovely and harmonious marriage of Fringe and spice and vanilla that it’s a Very good all-rounder powers so Lenten Whiskey is born thanks to birth of grain Whiskey Now the Irish distillers Dublin Distillers in particular ah weren’t fans
And we didn’t think they called it Snidely they call it silent spirit Because it didn’t have any character in It nothing to say for itself it was Silent and they refused to acknowledge It as a legitimate recipe or a Legitimate legitimate ingredient in the Creation of whiskey they said that Whiskey whiskey made in pot stills that Somebody’s been done for hundreds of Years if you use this newfangled Invention that’s a silent spirit that is Not whiskey and there was lots of our Legal wrangles over this and there was Lots of representations from the Blenders at this stage you had a very Excellent blenders in Scotland like the Shivers brothers aunts Johnny Walker and They were using what whiskey’s from Various different most distilleries and Blending them on a bed of grain whisky And exporting them very very very Successfully and again they concern the Conservative Dublin distillers saw this As quite a threat so they contained him Released a book on the truth about Whisky and it was basically quite a long Lemak I decrying the South Island spirit As they call it eventually they lost They lost the right to call to only call Apart distilled spirit whiskey and now Call him distilled spirits could also be Called whiskey especially whose blended With pot this bill still spirit so now
You have a perfect storm you have Temperance movement you have the After-effects of the Great Famine you’ve Got world war one followed hot on the Hands of World War one you’ve got Independence the warm independence the Civil War II got prohibition and then You go Pre-war Britain over the course of this Period of roughly 50 years Irish whisky Went from the best regarded spirit in The world and the most popular most and Producing most bonding spirit in the World that’s better term I’m gonna go With that most produced spirit in the World to a state of decrepitude if we’re Honest shark shark decline so by the Time the fifties have come around Irish Whisky was really in quite a poor place In terms of its economic health now is Fill that you see here on the right hand Side is actually the original 130,000 Gallon still was used in the distillery Was part of cork distillers Hank Eventually I’m gonna actually we’ve Talked about a little second I wanted to Talk about what happened to Irish Whiskey in after this trade delegation Essentially series of trade delegations In early 60s from Irish whiskey makers To the u.s. because the US was by far as It remains by far the largest market in The world and these are sisters were Trying to figure out how the quest for
Like us again what can we do to appeal To the u.s. whiskey drinker and they Discovered that the US would be good English and easy drinking and guess what You makes possible whiskey with green Whiskey you get something byte with good Character but is he be drinking now the Large industrial customers of Ireland Had long ago issue these of piece as a As a means of drawing a malted barley so What you have is classic style of fruity By slightly spicy hot stove but made Even lighter and more kind of a by the Addition into the band of young con Young stills grain spirit so that is the Birth really of what we call the spree And classic Irish blend one of them Obviously will be Jameson So Jim gonna pour in this again first Actually like doc got cars because a Little wash terrible isn’t yeah cause You gotta do when you gotta do and we’re Almost there almost at the end of the Journey at the end of this you wanna Hang around and tell me what you Thinking with the group that would be Amazing So Jemison as it describes before is a Blend of pot still whiskey and grain Whiskey the other main whiskey in Ireland at the time would have Bushmills And Bushmills is a multiple array of in County Antrim Northern Ireland Bushmills that emerged was a blend of
Malt whisky with grain whiskey and then Sitting in the Middle Kingdom You had tullum water I was known as Tom Who do total more whiskey would have Been more was he and hot stove he Blended with brain whiskey so these were The three staples of the great Irish Whiskey Ben’s packed around this time he Saw the part of duty-free Airport in Shannon part of Irish Coffee we’re gonna Talk about that at a later stage because I do want to get on to some more Pertinent statutory Irish whiskey so on The right-hand side of your screen you Have a robin redbreast and on the Left-hand side of your screen you got People’s cheers in whiskey some of them Need some when I’m mixed that’s not Terribly well um where I’m guessing That’s gonna be with ginger and ice oh It’s so low noise so that’s basically How our Irish whiskey would now look That is nice easy drinking the success Of this ingress since American market be Possession ours with Irish whiskey Smooth easy drinking approachable Bend I Meant that it would know a drink for a Social moment But during this time everything had to Consolidate because it wasn’t economical To run these hilary’s anymore the most Versatile reason are closed over the Course of the 20th century they’re all Amalgamated into one come into one
Company called Irish distillers limited and the last One the last outlier to join Irish Distillers with Bushmills in 1972 in 1975 1970s the powers distillery paddy Rolling coal built being amalgamated and They were all based in one new Distillery down in Middleton in County Cork Oh you honey buddy 1980 you’re only two Operational whiskey distilleries in Ireland about Bushmills in the north and The new Middleton distillery which Replaced the old middle from distillery And that transition happened in July 1975 one night the old ancillary stopper JC in the next morning Newman’s it Started and the middle from distillery That openeth merchants by distillery was By far the most technologically advanced Distillery anywhere in the world at the Time it could create every sort of grade And weight and style of pot still Whiskey Care to make it could also take care to The same for malt whiskey And also do the same for grain whiskey And it needed to because this new Distillery created all the liquid that Would go into powers and padding’s into Red rest in the green spot into jameson Two of the component liquors i were Going to on the moor one of the Component goods that we’re going to the
Bushmills blend um so what happened why Are we talking why is everyone talking About Irish whiskey today Well Irish whiskey is definitely in the Midst of an enormous Renaissance and if You had to pin it on one or two people The first name that would come to mind Is John Keeling dr. John healing was not A distillery as a businessman but he Spotted an opportunity when an old Biofuel refinery plant was being Mothballed and sold off essentially he Realized that if he bought it A biofuel refinery is essentially the Same mechanism as a whiskey distillery You can think about a whiskey Distillation do your refining biofuel You’re finding a fermented version of Organic matter so he bought a refinery And and converted into a Distillery and he started cooling Kabedon country and he revived lots Whiskey he created connemara heated Irish whiskey he stopped a double Distillation water in preparation with Typical of all other distilleries in Ireland by this point beautiful image on The ROI this very most romantic area of The West of Ireland in country going on His connemara equated connemara whiskey Which is a piece of double distilled Whiskey and Irish whiskey made very much In the Scottish style and tare carnal And lox was reborn which is one sweet
Most popular whiskey in the world So dr. John Teeling now had the only Independent whiskey distillery in Ireland and they were doing their own Thing now in their own furro the other Thing that was interesting and key to What is now happening in Irish whiskeys Pernod Ricard I was just happy Separators of Bushmills could no longer Be part of it that was salted agio but In a new Middleton distillery Pernod Ricard preserved the tradition of Todd Still Irish whiskey it was the only Place in the world that Irish pot still Whiskey with 8 and up to very recently That was true it was the only source of Irish pasta that’s a longer true but it Certainly preserved the particle style Because Todd still was of course needed For Jameson but then brands of redbreast And green spot which are cornerstones of Pots to Irish whiskey today they all Survived and thrived because of what Happened in the Middleton this january Under the auspices of the Irish Irish The students didn’t from a Ricard ah Then we have a second wave of micro Distillery the waves that came after Early in Quebec and wave places like Dingle our West Cork a bit more I’m Talking from now Eklund Val up in Northern Ireland where they’re doing Some really interesting things with Masters
Feeling distillery no-tilling is not dr. John tooling in his sons they took quite A lot of the aged stock that was a Better part of sale of cooling toboggan When it was sold to beam Centauri and With that age stock they came out with Their own brand called healing whiskey They then opened the first whiskey Distillery in Dublin all the whiskey Distilleries in Dublin had been closed And they started spilling whiskey for The first time in Dublin for many Decades and with the Royal Oak Distillery which is a way what you’d Associate with Brando the Irishman and They’re all making mostly malt whiskey No longer making grain whiskey because That’s quite an industrial process but Someone start making Oh Pasta whiskey now the Jameson It’s difficult to describe Jemison Because there’s so many different Expressions I mean you can get some Excellent like Jameson a wonderful Wonderful whiskey it’s an outstanding List by anybody’s better standard if Jameson is very good drinking whiskey And mixing whiskey you’re gonna get on The second right 58 minutes but I gotta Power through and get you there Those enough to the arc um there are Major acquisitions and investments then Happen around 10 15 years ago are within Grants and songs but one of the finest
Traditional whiskey makers in Scotland Still a family-owned company they Acquired polymer brand and they’ve built A mean distillery in town where it’s Pointed and enormous to storia was Working for Tullamore on a consultancy Basis on many projects at the time and Their commitment a financial commitment You invited I assisted in considering That it’s just money from the family Company is would be something old Ah cool Eko beggin was then sold by John Tilling to being some Tory and then Bushmills which was owned by Diageo was Sold by Diageo to the Beckman family who And hot on the heels of selling on the Bushmills distillery the ijeo then made A huge investment and those the row and Company a row uncle distillery next to The Guinness or part of the great Guinness brewery grounds if everybody Knows anything about beer they know that Guinness is owned by Diageo Guinness is One original company to form Diageo um Few decades ago and so ruin coal now has A new life the original for Dublin Distilleries know as a new life as part Of the D’Angelo family and then we have The new third wave of payment series Blackwater disarray herding Really fascinating out there stuff econd Villa mentioned before : they’re doing a Chain and it is really interesting Finishes shed distillery which is making
Pots Lewis is also famous for their for Their Gin their gunpowder Irish Jim comes in a Very identifiable blue bottle Bowen Distillery Dublin Liberty sister Larry I’ve got some lovely liquid water for Distillery Mike Ranney who was behind The be launched of the burglary to Sir Ian Tyler has a vested very very heavily In turn into water for distillery and They are committed very heavily to the Idea of terroir that they they are Committed to the idea that you can tell One field from another field in a whisky We get onto that in a second this very Interesting proposition and finally the Great Northern distillery come full Circle John’s healing when he converted the Biofuel with binary to add the Cooley Distillery repeated the trick he then Bought the heart brewery in Dundalk Which he was the home of a heart larder And he converted it into a distillery And now that’s the Great Northern History the Great Northern the story Will not be known in future really Primarily as a source of its own brand Of whisky but it is the greatest Producer in Ireland right now of Contract distilling cuz all of the Majors have their own whiskey that They’re making for themselves All of these minor small distilleries
They need sources all grain whiskey they At the great northern Missouri they can Make pasta whiskey to a recipe big malt Whiskey to a recipe so it’s not a Million miles away what we do mister the Irish whiskey industry back in the 70s So whereas Irish whiskey now come from Place where in 1980 they were two active Whiskey distilleries in the country now As of December 2019 there were 31 active Whiskey distilleries I’m reliable Reliably informed that are now five Months later that has jumped by three so They’re now 34 active whiskey Distilleries in Ireland Irish whiskeys Bones were an enormous boom out of those 34 active whiskey distilleries in the Island of Ireland and it’s important we Talk about our system what the whole Country For the purposes of Irish whiskey we Don’t see a border as being the key Differentiating factor we see the fact That it’s all made in the one island is Very much part of the profile and the Geographical indication of Irish whiskey Out of those 34 active distilleries in Ireland 22 of them are producing Irish Protestant whiskey and I think that is Very interesting it gives you an idea of Where the future of the Irish whiskey Category it’s going photograph to your Right I took on my phone has a new extension
Of wescourt distillers yesterday so that Is the freshest image you’re going to Get an Irish whiskey distillery there Are also two small and grapa stills that They have that they bought for a couple Of grands that they have earned as a way To playing with but there you see three Large copper pot stills and two column Stills Which are broken into the analyzer and Rectifier if anybody has done the WCT Level 2 they know why I still continue Our column still in order to not have a Go you know 15 years in beer you can Essentially break it in two sections and So what is happening in Irish whisky at The moment well you have a lot of people Who’ve really got onboard the idea of What Irish whiskey largely that is down To the cocktail movements and a large Part of that will be down to the the two Boys Jack and Shawn who were behind the Dead rabbit bar in New York soon to Become dead rabbits throughout the USA They were for a long time the leading Cocktail bar in the world and they Pioneered and championed the use of Irish whiskey cocktails their book from Barley to Bologna with a pub around the Country in the company of till early From Tullamore Jew and Rebecca Dooley is Very very worth reading a highly Committed to any of you so we have a Great pot stew revival happening now
Mash bills so what are the differences In styles Well one of the big differences in style Is lot of grain G years now we know in Pot still In years malted and on malted barley and Some other grains now according to the Current definition in the technical file Held within the European Union you can Only use 5% of other grains that’s a Source of some debate and controversy at The moment because some fillers like Down Eckland Ville and Blackwater I’ve Discovered historical mash bones where You head up to 20 25 % oats and in the Mashable so they’re making their own Spirit along the lines about historical Mush those are notes give you a very Smooth very creamy mouthfeel and you Have yeast grades I’m going to divest Myself of that little bit of Jameson Unfortunately I’m throwing away a lot of Whisky joining us Well you know needs must so when it Popped onto the west core customers only 10 minutes walk that way John McConnell So head of ancho they’re very kindly Gave me a few samples most interesting Of which is this this isn’t whiskey Because it’s new may experience a 62% That means basically come out of the Cask at that sprint it’s not old enough People whiskey hasn’t been in cast for 3 Years this is round about two years old
Hence very light in color oh he’s just Made a note there handwritten on the top That says you know a lot of distillers Like Alex chesco and healing and I know They’re experimenting this up and kill Owen as well are exploring the idea of Were deists and what that does if you Most whiskey made in Ireland and the UK Uses one of three strains of yeast I Think the name of the most common strain Is IDC which and a distinct company I Believe it’s a sprain and strain EXO Another distiller so patiently correct Me I’m Ashley you know better um but That friend of yeast is very good at Producing certain esters we talked about Them before and they know the the Orchard fruit esters it’s very good at Converting the sugars into alcohol which Is very important for the creation of of Whiskey eventually but while these Strains will give something different This piece it’s actually it’s a culture Of the world East that was harvested From the skins of wild blackberries a Very beautiful spot on the car can carry Border called Google bara and if you Ever happen to be around that way I Highly recommend the most scenic Barton Area visit so on the nose this we are It’s a lot more funky than what you Would expect from a typical Irish Whiskey triple distilled but the esters That are coming true there’s a lot more
Barnyard in here Certainly getting the fatter style of Para G H of your cereal notes And because it’s 62 or 63 60 62 I’m Definitely mad I punched him underwater – right W SETI does not approach you always Recommend adding a little bit of water When you’re tasting because if you’re Going through quite a lot of spirits in A day if your your ability to taste Precisely is quite diminished afterward Hmm it’s very told steep almost like Posted barley and very farmyard II you Think of kind of hay and silage it’s That that’s sort of a very very very Different point you’d expect from an From an Irish whiskey distillate though Other types of innovations are happening At the moment Calais types Irish whisky Is less limited than Scotch whisky that We do not only have to use oak casks and Maturation in Ireland it can use Chestnut as method and madness with just Experimental micro distillery branched Off in Middleton history has quite a Recently began you can use any type of Oak the there’s a brand called JJ quarry And they recently released no ash Whiskey that has been finished in Tequila and mezcal casks back this Scottish whiskey Association excuse me Recently relaxed the laws about what Casks Scotch producers could use because
Irish whiskey produce in gaining a bit Of a head start and them in terms of Experimentation round finishing there’s A lot of experimental treatments to use And I know of that it’s smoked meat just Like that is again in West Cork and Supposed to be or I would be called Couric which is part of the connect Vodka family of brands very both very Very interesting liquids and Waterford And the terroir experiment time will Tell can terroir an individual field Identification survived process of Barrel aging mark Renner has been a bank But it does there’s a lot of skepticism Out there time will tell There’s something definitely worth Keeping an eye on so their first release Is due out or on now actually they were Going to have a big party but in 40 During their in circumstances that’s not Possible And lastly but no means least you now Have the Reaper 213 in Ireland running At an hour and 10 so hopefully most of You still with me but Cochino is being relaunched as a premium Brand a premium category you have brands Like born per gene launched by a Dave Mulligan who also has our 6061 in Government Chisholm was first and Leading a gene bar and that is on the Menu in places like the American Bar in The Savoy in London or it also had very
Interesting genes from the West of Ireland under the brand name of Mikheil There’s a specific release that they Have which harks back rich the bar with Herbs and local spices that’s very much Checking out and there’s madam our Shared is a number of very good machines On the market available to everybody and So that is the end of the presentation I’m aware that I’ve kept you a little Bit but thanks for sticking with me I’m Going to stop sharing now but I’m just Going to raise a glass and say it’s Launcher thank you for your time and That hopefully won’t picked up a little Bit more about Irish whiskey over the Course of the last 70 minutes cheers Thanks Ibaka’s fight shield you know I Have to do is we don’t have to stop Sharing no one so relax you do that at a Breakneck speed a lot of materials to Get through hopefully most people were Able to keep up with me and maybe to Follow my actions as well I think we got A lot stronger since I’ve come back to West Cork any questions they want to put To charlie while we’re still here you Can unmute yourself if you would like to Do so a couple of people have been Asking for the powerpoints if you’re Happy to share those Charlie I can send Those out absolutely cool Charlie Breen Here anyway very much for for a very Very informative hour I know you you you
Galloped through a lot about very fast But it was it was great to to get all That detail um would you like to talk a Little bit more about the position that IDL have in the market and how they are Influencing the progress of Irish Whiskey particularly in terms of the What Irish pot still whiskey means yeah Okay that’s a very interesting question There is it is a hot topic at the moment First thing I would say is our idea our Sisters has the amount of investment That has gone into our Irish distillers From Pernell especially in establishing Jameson as such a runaway success in the US market and in other areas means that I do not have a bad word to say about Irish distillers I’m gonna put the Opposite position people pot still Whiskey as we know is is something that Is made from a mashable of malted barley And other grains when the technical file Was lodged with the European Union when Geographical indication I was created I Can’t remember the year exactly forward A couple of decades back at least Irish Distillers were the only people making Pasta whiskey and nobody else was Submitting any contrary position to what The definition of custom whiskey could Be so the definition of pot still Whiskey that was lodged at the time was It was the type of whiskey that Irish Distillers are baking and there’s
Absolutely nothing wrong with that Though Irish distillers are making a Type of whiskey that was bolted barley And unmalted barley with up to 5% other Grains in the Mossville And that was what it was that’s what They were doing that’s where they were Making there weren’t any objections to It at the time and that is the big of Definition of Irish pot still whiskey Now under law I’m speaking of which I’m Going to go back to my favorite spring Pressed conversation she’s obviously Made in Middleton by our sisters to this Specification Now with the emergence of new Distilleries places like Dingle Teeling Most of the micro distillery the Students that have opened in Ireland Over the last 10 years are making pot Still whiskey and one of those Distilleries and I know he won’t have Any problem with me using his name in Connection this is run by gentlemen Coffee normal Ryan literally wrote the Book on Irish whiskey this book on Irish Whiskey but Kodomo Ryan it is the Textbook on Irish whiskey if you go to Youtube and you look Sarge Irish pasta And whiskey there is a video by Irish Distillers IDL featuring Peter Mel Ryan Talking true what Irish pasta whiskey is Peter has subsequently unearthed some Old recipes from various distilleries
Around Ireland that might not Necessarily be in the Dublin Distilleries with some of the Distilleries that we’re making pasta Whiskey with a far higher proportion of Oats in particular and other other Grains now the word that people use and It’s important to remove ourselves from This whenever we’re talking about Whiskey in an historical sense people Will use the word corn in a historical Sense corn does not refer to maize or Sweet corn corn refers to any cereal Grain so I restricted some of these old Recipes we refer to corn of which malted Barley X % Unmalted barley X % oats XY y % and Peters position along with some of the Other new distilleries are like Oakland Vella is making a whiskey at the moment That is it is maturing it has meant that It is Turing it’s older than 3 years Where they are reproducing a Potts I’m Asheville from the old Cobra Distillery which has been local to where They are you know you’re in the arts Peninsula count it down and XFL makes The best whiskey in Ireland and this Isn’t it’s not a quality it’s not a Comments Quality is a conversation kind of about Authenticity to the way Irish distillers Back in the day when the technical file Was launched to find what hot stone
Whiskey was and therefore could be there Are now legitimate voices saying that Well we now understand that posture Whisky historically could have been Fallen well outside of your definition Of posture whiskey and so the Conversation is very active within the Industry about is there going to be a New definition of positive whiskey and Or if they’re going to be a separate Category created perhaps called Historical pot still whiskey or heritage Pot still ski which would reserve the Current definition of possible whiskey And create a second paddle separate Category where in distillers can sell a Product that would be made according to Historical mash bills so hopefully That’s not too controversial or too Long-winded a position for that but I Think that’s a pretty accurate Reflection of where is at the last I Heard those which was about six months Ago those conversations are still very Active at a high level and I don’t have Any update on what the new position ISM Although I fully expect there will be Some sort of in beer that’s great Ernie Thief